When is the band too loud?

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 12 Aug 2002 12:56 am

On Saturday afternoon I went to the Everett Eagles Club to attend the POWS Convention. I also wanted to meet Forumite, Al Gershen. When I walked in the club Al was on stage playing his 1956 Fender 1000. As I went closer to the stage I could see that Al was wearing something on his head. The sound from the band was thumping pretty good, very loud bass and drums. Al was wearing a pair of ear muff ear protectors. How much more obvious can it be to the sound man that the band is too damn loud. I could only hear Al's steel guitar when the band leader gave him a short solo.

Too bad I didn't have my camera with me.?? Al looked very cute with his ear muffs on.

I stayed around and talked to Al after he was through playing. He told me the band was so loud it was driving him crazy. He was very concerned about damaging his hearing.

After I spoke with Al I decided to leave the club to protect my hearing.

Roger

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 12 Aug 2002 4:42 am

hi Rog, the bands too luod when I have to turn my Standels above 3 1/2

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 12 Aug 2002 5:25 am

The band is too loud when your ears are bleeding and you're having trouble focusing your eyes. Thanks to bands like that, I have perminent tinitus.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 12 Aug 2002 6:19 am

Is ear wax red?

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 12 Aug 2002 10:35 am

Worried about just your ears?

If it was THAT loud, it could easily make you sterile!

Some bands just don't get it. WHen the crowd moves clear to the far, back wall, or out into a hallway, or simply leave the building......they should get a clue.

But then again, they bought those 1000 watt amps.......ain't that what it's all about?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 12 Aug 2002 10:41 am

It's to loud when it's unpleasant to at least one member of the band and/ or the people that pay you to listen to your music

www.steeljj.com

Earl Yarbro · Post by **Earl Yarbro** » 12 Aug 2002 11:17 am

When you can't hear the singer or lead players.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 12 Aug 2002 11:32 am

A fellow came out to see me in a rock band I was recently playing with in a pretty small room. He emailed me the next day to compliment me and all. But he also said--"I know it's not your fault but boy, those guys sure do like to punish the audience with that volume!"....

I figure that any time a person can use the word "punish" in his assessment, the band is probably too loud.[This message was edited by Jon Light on 12 August 2002 at 12:33 PM.]

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 12 Aug 2002 11:33 am

I'm sorry...but could you repeat that?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 12 Aug 2002 11:34 am

It's funny, but since I joined Open Hearts, which is a "rock" band, I've noticed that many country bands just play too loud. Maybe it's because most country bands tend to lack dynamics - the mix stays at the one volume, and keeps increasing as players turn up to hear themselves.

Open Hearts is not as loud as 90% of the country bands I've played with. It's one of the things that I really like about the band. We do have a few loud songs, but for the most part we keep it down so that we can hear the drummer, who keeps us all in line.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 12 Aug 2002 11:47 am

Too loud is not a well defined term, because it's a judgement that each individual makes. Clearly, if people are wincing on every note or the owner or bartender tells the band that it is too loud, IT IS.

The easy answer is you are too loud whenever folks aren't enjoying being where you're playing BECAUSE of the band's volume. That should be incentive enough to play at reasonable levels to suit the management and clientele. But some bands and bandleaders are clueless. They have this fancy gear that can blow the back end off a gymnasium and, by God, they're gonna use it!

Some bar owners are clueless, but most understand what reasonable volume is. When the waitresses can't hear what folks are ordering and business is impaired, most bar owners see the problem. Different places are different -- some require that patrons be able to carry on conversations while the music is playing. But I have seen some owners who will complain constantly about volume (or other things as well) and STILL hire the same band back over and over. Kinda sends mixed messages that you'll get away with it if you just ignore it.

The band should be sensitive to what's expected. The band should be prepared to play at anything from jukebox volume (it CAN be done) to loud enough to fill the room (another imprecise term) and be able to read the crowd's (and management's) reaction effectively.

One thing you can lose by playing EITHER to softly or too loudly is dynamics. Uptempo or rock or blues numbers may sound better a bit louder than a ballad and it 'gets people going better', so bar owners sometimes like that aspect of it. I have actually played in bars where the owner asked us to turn UP.

Back to the original question, you will often have one or two people who think any music is too loud. (and I differ with Earl because many bands who I think are too loud have a pretty good mix -- you hear everything ok -- it's just that EVERYTHING is too loud). If the one who pays you (the 'boss') or many of those who pay him/her (the clientele) think you're too loud, YOU ARE. Whether you agree or not, if the 'boss' says TURN DOWN, it doesn't matter whether you think you're too loud or not. It's kinda like the base runner who beats the throw to first, but the ump calls him out. He's still out if the ump says so.

Just my opinion.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 12 August 2002 at 12:55 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 12 Aug 2002 12:06 pm

Let's put some real numbers on the loudness.

I bought a cheap sound level meter but it only goes up to 120 dB, and the Chris Gaffney band is usually louder than that. I would guess about 125 dB.

How loud are you all?

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 12 Aug 2002 12:49 pm

It's too loud when you can't communicate with the band members on the other side of the stage with out blowing out your vocal chords because you have to yell! IMHO
JE:-)>

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 12 Aug 2002 1:09 pm

One of the gigs I play each week has been getting hassled by O.S.H.A. because of volume levels of the bands. This lounge runs three different bands a day from 11A.M till 3A.M. So if the bartender and waitress are there for an 8hr. shift O.S.H.A. says they can't be exposed to any continues volume over 90db. They say the band should be at 85db or less. Well we put a db meter in the middle of the room with the lounge just over half full of people and it was 87db that was with the p.a. OFF during a break. So the room volume is 87db with no music and were supposed to play at 85db. We play at about 90 to 95 db anyways, but some of the bands have hit over 120db. So now they gave all the bands warning's and they have the db police show up with the meter every week or so. They made the bartenders and waitress wear ear plugs when it gets loud.
Hear's O.S.H.A.'s max times for volume exposure.
db Time
85 - 16 hr
90 - 8 hr
95 - 4 hr
100 - 2 hr
105 - 1 hr
110 - 30 min
115 - 15 min
120 - 7.5 min
125 - 3 min[This message was edited by Alvin Blaine on 12 August 2002 at 02:13 PM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 12 Aug 2002 1:18 pm

Here's an interesting link: http://tinpan.fortunecity.com/melody/73/tinnitus.html

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Aug 2002 3:22 pm

I always thought it was one of the strange paradoxes about the listening crowds...the fact that the young crowd (with supposedly good hearing) likes it terribly loud, and the older crowd (whose hearing is usually impaired) likes lower volume levels.

At any rate, music is supposed to have dynamics (something most rock fans and rock musicians have never learned).

Continuously loud music isn't music at all...it's just noise! Many years ago, I went through that stage too...kickass loud---all the time.

Then I grew up, or acquired some taste, or became an "old dude", or got smart. Whatever it was, I'm glad it happened. These days, I won't stay in a place (or a group) if the music's too loud.

Winnie Winston · Post by **Winnie Winston** » 12 Aug 2002 6:12 pm

I stopped playing out because it was always too loud.
I have already lost ythe hearing in my right ear.
I was not about to let the left one go too.

Most of the gigs I play now are at small acoustic clubs which have NO PA and one mic for vocals.
Much fun.

Winnie

Gary Walker · Post by **Gary Walker** » 12 Aug 2002 7:23 pm

I walked out on a Jerry Reed concert a few years ago because it was so loud, I figured a jet taking off wouldn't have been heard. It's too bad because the music content was great but not worth the abuse to my poor ears. Loud music does not improve bad quality.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 12 Aug 2002 7:56 pm

After one night I quit playing with a good Country Rock band. Paid good too. Everybody in the place must have got tinnitus, I did...al

Steve England · Post by **Steve England** » 12 Aug 2002 8:57 pm

Well, after having my ears completly battered by the guitar players at a gig this weekend, and telling them to turn down THREE TIMES!! this thread was like a ray of light for me.

I printed it up and gave it out to each band member at rehearsal tonight. . I think I proved my point. I'll find out at our next gig on thursday.

Don Townsend · Post by **Don Townsend** » 13 Aug 2002 9:00 am

quote "Loud music does not improve bad quality"
Similar to "If you can't play, play loud"

Bobby Bensley · Post by **Bobby Bensley** » 13 Aug 2002 9:09 am

I always felt that if those seated in tables at the middle of the room or further back from the stage were having to lean close together to carry on a conversation then not only was it too loud but was quite likely that the highs were to high in the mix as well.

Those who sit close to the stage tend to prefer it loud while those back from the stage tend to want to hear more then feel the music, lows in their feet, mids in the gut and highs in the chest / head.

Peace,
Bobby Bensley
CMAP Music International

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 13 Aug 2002 10:11 am

It's too loud when...

The amp can blow out a zippo!

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 13 Aug 2002 12:57 pm

I think the term "too loud" is relative to the setting and focus of the band. I dont really go to too many country music bars, but I assume that they also have 2 seperate distinctions for clubs.

1. The type of club that books bigger named bands that you have to buy a ticket or pay a cover charge of over $12(or $25 at the House of Blues!). These are the type of venues that you are specifically going to see a bigger named touring act, and you want to actually hear whats going on on the stage. If you want to tell something to your buddy, you need to scream into his ear to be heard. I dont mind these type of venues being "too loud".

2. The type of club that people go to socialize, talk about their lives or hook up w/ that special someone. These places generally do not have cover charges, and if they do, they are rarely over $5. My oppinion, is that the live music in these joints are a draw for only about half of the patrons, and that when the band gets "too loud" customers walk out and the band loses the gig. Nothing worse than going to one of these places and the band has the volume at 11.

What really pisses me off, is rehearsals that are too loud. I reahearsed for a "one time only" gig last winter, and I almost walked out because it was too loud. These guys rehearsal space was 10 feet wide by 20 feet deep, w/ uninsulated metal walls. The whole band had 2x12 Marshalls and the bass player had some monster stack. I played along for a while, but after about 2 songs, I explained that it is impossible to learn the tunes at that volume level, and most importantly you cant play w/ any dynamics if you cant hear half of the people playing. Anyway, had a blast at the gig, but I still have nightmares about that rehearsal space!

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

[This message was edited by Matt Steindl on 13 August 2002 at 01:58 PM.]

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 13 Aug 2002 1:15 pm

One more thing, Larry Bell talked about playing at "jukebox volume". I have had a few gigs at an Irish bar in the French Quarter, and it is such a small place that the bars requires you to play very quietly(a little bit louder than a jukebox!). At first, this sounds like a bummer, but the actuallity of it, is that these have been some of the most fun gigs i have ever played. Playing music w/ other human beings is supposed to be an intelligent musical conversation between the people on stage. When you play at reasonable levels, all parties(musicians) get their point across, and it it comes off like George Will, Albert Einstein, and Ghandi having an inteligent conversation. When it gets cranked too loud, oftentimes it sounds like the Ho's on Jerry springer yelling at each other.

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Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul