| Author |
Topic: Unfamiliar changes with lots of modulations... |
Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 9:33 am |
|
Sometimes for some ear training I'll pull out a record from another genre, alt-rock or ambient or something, and just have at, trying to figure out the changes on the fly. Usually I can do this without too much problem, but last night I was playing along to a record by Chris Cornell (formerly of Soundgarden) which has some really great Beatles-type changes; very frustrating though as I couldn't get anything happening!! There were so many modulations, unexpected changes from major to minor, etc. that I was truly at sea. Question is, do any of you out there ever do this for practice, and if so what's a good approach to take, if there's no "key" really? Look forward to your responses.
|
|
|
|
Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 9:53 am
|
|
| To develop an ear for changes in popular songs (country, rock-n-roll, soft pop), a great way to do it would be to get hold of a Beatles fake book, and go over all the songs. They probably cover every imaginable progression in popular music that you could find (obviously, this does not include jazz. For that, you would need jazz fake books). They employ many major to minor, back to major type progressions, diminished and augmented chords, and many twists and turns. Defintely a way to get you on board with some tricky stuff. Regards .. Jeff |
|
|
|
Larry Bell
From:
Englewood, Florida
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 9:55 am
|
|
I agree wholeheartedly with Jeff.
The more songs you know, the more songs you know. 
------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro |
|
|
|
Bruce Clarke
From:
Spain
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 10:36 am
|
|
| IMHO this approach will do more to improve one's knowledge of the instrument, ear training, and general musicality etc. than just about anything else, but it can be tough going. I'm not familiar with Chris Cornell, but as far as the Beatle's songs are concerned, they mostly use basic harmonies,nothing far out, but sometimes in unusual and unexpected sequences.However, a given Beatles song will always be in a certain key, and in my case I have to establish what that is before I can begin to get the the thing down. then I take it a few bars at a time, depending on the difficulty. All in all it means some heavy listening. Another bonus I find is that the concentration involved means that if I finally work it out I remember it more easily than something learned say from tab. |
|
|
|
Bruce Clarke
From:
Spain
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 10:45 am
|
|
| Jeff, what you suggest is a very good way to learn a song, and will certainly improve one's reading, but I think that Gerald's post is concerned with another approach. |
|
|
|
Michael Holland
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 11:18 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| if there's no "key" really? |
It's probably that different sections of the song are in different keys. Take the choruses by themselves and they'll probably be similar. Then the verses may be similar to each other as well. Try to find the relationship of one set of sections to another set and the puzzle may start to make sense.
Another possibility is that the sections don't start or end on the tonic, but on some other chord within the key. Analyzing the relationships of the minors to majors should reveal the key. |
|
|
|
Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 12:34 pm
|
|
| Wow. You guys are amazing. Thanks for the great advice, especially yours, Michael. Much appreciated. Let's see what else comes in. |
|
|
|
Jeff Lampert
From:
queens, new york city
|
Posted 7 Aug 2002 4:13 pm
|
|
JMO, but analyzing the chord changes is a useful idea for developing theoretical constructs on chord/musical relationships, and that is indeed something that is very useful for developing your musicality, BUT I don't think analyzing the stuff alone will "train" your ear. I think to do that, you need hands-on experience with as many songs as possible, with as many interesting progressions as possible. I'm current doing a similar exericise with the jazz standards. Whereas I can play probably every Beatles song there is, and that has given me a decent ear for rock and pop, I find that I don't have the "trained" ear for jazz. I don't automatically pick up all of the myriad of modulations and chord extensions and alterations that, while common in jazz, are not found in rock or pop. I've been working my way through fakebooks, and listening to songs. It certainly has "trained" my ear to a degree, but I'm way short of where I want to be. Until I can automatically hear the changes and modulation in a song like "Night And Day" the way I can on "Here, There, and Everywhere", I won't be satisfied. And I can assure you I have analyzed this stuff a lot and understand what's going on, but only by listening to it and playing it a lot will I ever hope to nail down jazz changes quickly by ear. All in MHO, naturally. |
|
|
|
Greg Vincent
From:
Folsom, CA USA
|
Posted 8 Aug 2002 1:23 pm
|
|
Gerald,
Great topic. I've found that ear training is a great thing to do in the car. Listen to a tune and see if you can hum the root note of the chord that is happening at that moment. I also like to name the number of the chord when I do this exercise. This helped me a lot with recognizing changes in country tunes.
Hint: If you're stumped, turn up the bass and take another pass at it. Usually the bass gives you a clue to the root of the chord --although in McCartney's case that might not always be true!
And keep your eyes on the road! 
-GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 09 August 2002 at 09:03 AM.] |
|
|
|
Bruce Clarke
From:
Spain
|
Posted 9 Aug 2002 9:40 am
|
|
Gerald, in your original post you posed the question "do any of you out there ever do this for practice." Well, we know that BE does, because he has told us that one of his practice routines is to turn on the radio and play along. So stay with it, remember, a musician can only be as good as his/her ear.
|
|
|
|
William Steward
From:
Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
|
Posted 9 Aug 2002 9:33 pm
|
|
| Gerald---I found a book which I have been gradually working through entitled "Hearin' The Changes; Dealing With Unknown Tunes By Ear" (J. Coker, B. Knapp, L. Vincent, Advance Music 1997). It has given me good leads on doing eactly what you are talking about by grouping many tunes by their structural similarities. This is geared specifically to fairly complex "jazz" tunes but I am finding the approach just as useful for tunes in general. It is fairly easy to hear tunes based on the blues or "I Got Rhythm changes" but this book goes a few steps further and groups together songs into to other categories by their stock bridges, chord changes or modulations. The book is only $19.95 so if it proves useless to you you can probably get $25 for it on Ebay. |
|
|
|
John Steele (deceased)
From:
Renfrew, Ontario, Canada
|
Posted 10 Aug 2002 12:03 am
|
|
People are often surprised that you can study an entire semester in University music programs about the II-V-I change. It seems like an overstatement of importance, but;
If you master the concepts and options behind II-V-I changes in every key, then you will start to notice that alot of these "segments" of tunes which seem to jump into another tonal centre employ some or all of the parts of the II-V-I change of that new tonality.
Just a thought.
-John |
|
|
|
Bruce Clarke
From:
Spain
|
Posted 10 Aug 2002 1:44 am
|
|
Right on John, I think an excellent example of that is the middle section of "Lover." After the first 16 bars of the tune there is an abrupt shift up a major third and we get 4 bars with the 2-5-1 change that you mention, with a diminished chord thrown in. These 4 bars are repeated exactly and then we get the same 4 bars but a major third higher again, and then a return to the original tonal centre. Quite an earful to cope with, but the above knowledge enables me to play it.
Another thing to listen for is the "circle of fifths," (very common paticularly in older tunes (Sweet Georgia Brown, Lazy river)
A true story; George Shearing relates that the first time he sat in with Charlie Parker he said "Bird, what do want to play?" Came the reply "How about Cherokee in B major!"
But, said George "I was ready"
|
|
|
|
Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
|
Posted 10 Aug 2002 6:02 am
|
|
Good thread!
This was the first (and still my favorite) way of practicing when I started playing guitar back when I was about 12. Do it pretty often with the steel now, too. Put on music you've never heard (CD or radio), and see if you can (within the first couple of bars):
1) identify key and sonority (major or minor) immediately (listen to bass)
2) identify rhythmic style/genre (listen to bass/drums) to get the right feel;
3) note progression patterns and section changes (i.e., verse, bridge, chorus, etc...);
4) note the progression patterns within each section.
Doing this "on the fly" (no cheating! will doing amazing things for your ears in a very short time. Start with country material. Why country? Because it also includes pop/rock (modern country does, anyway). Put on a country radio station, crank it up, and pretend you're on the gig! Eventually, move on to other styles.
The best ear training I ever got was joining a polka band back in 1990 (not just polka either. We did it all -- pop, rock, country, swing, many "ballroom dance" styles, plus all the ethnic stuff). I learned more about being a musician with this band than I did in 4 years of music school at I.U.!
Anyway, I got together with the accordion player/leader for an hour, so he could see if I could hear the changes and modulations (polkas are notorious for modulating -- sometimes 3 or 4 times within a song)! Then, that following Friday night, I played my first gig on guitar. Three weeks later, he handed me a 4-string "plectrum" banjo, and said "Your ears are good. Can you learn to play this in a week?" I did (Note: that is, polka style rhythm playing, NOT bluegrass style! What? In a week? Are you kiddin'!?) I played with that band for 10 years and ALWAYS learned something!
Good luck, and keep at it!
TJW
------------------
Todd James Weger/RD/RTD
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, B11, E13); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6); Melobar SLS lapsteel (open D); Chandler RH-4 Koa semi-hollow lapsteel (open G); Regal resonator (open G) |
|
|
|
