DUI laws

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 26 Apr 2002 8:58 am

I have seen in the past and on another post references to new DUI laws causing clubs to close and hurting the live music business. As a recovering (13 years now) alcoholic, I say then so be it...And I do have a real internal dilemma when I play clubs, because I know darn well as we're packing up that 90% of the folks leaving have NO business behind the wheel, and most of them will do just that. I see almost NO designated drivers at the clubs. And trust me, I see NO customers who come in and nurse one beer all night then leave at 2AM. Virtually every person in the place is crocked, and I mean more than just legally. I mean, back in the day, I would drive not only home but to other parties after closing time so blasted I didn't know what road I was on. I finally got caught, and got hip. But there's still a ton of folks out there driving blind drunk...and to be fair the new DUI laws don't seem to make much difference to them.

So I have a problem with the "The new DUI laws are shutting us down.." thing. At the same time, I have a problem with cops parking right across the street from the bar at closing time and issuing DUI's to whoever walks out the door. I mentioned that to a friend of mine who is a cop in the little town I used to live in. They had a habit of doing just that until a judge made them back off a little. But from his perspective, if you leave a bar at closing time, and get behind the wheel, he automatically has probable cause to check you out-because statistics say you're bombed, and he's right. To be fair, he said you could also take that one step further and make the assumption that just about ANYONE driving through Lafayette at 2AM was a prime suspect, and he was right about that too, but like I said, the judge felt they were crossing a line and made them back off.

But my buddy said one chilling thing to me-

"Let's say some guy you just finished playing for all night gets half bagged-maybe not falling down, but over the limit. He gets in his car, pulls onto the road, runs a stop sign and whacks into a car holding your niece and her boyfriend, and kills them both. You'd be wanting to know why I didn't stop that guy-or how he was allowed to get that way to start with."

Touche

So while I realize that there's less clubs because the clientele is shrinking, I also understand there's a reason for those tighter laws. And I do not buy the idea that a 1.0 bac is too low. That takes size and weight into consideration. And here's a very unpopular statement, one I didn't agree with at first, but it is absolutely true-a judge told me at my hearing that, "If you are feeling perfectly fine at 1.0, or if you can't go out and have a good time listening to music without alcohol when you know you have to drive, then you need to re-examine your relationship with booze. Because you no longer have the upper hand in that relationship."

So there you have it-a nice little dilemma-Clubs are still a major employer of local musicians. But at the end of the night you've got a lot of dangerous people running around in cars. And the tighter laws are are making it harder for those folks to stay out of jail, hence keeping them at home, hence cutting into our gig opportunities. I can't imagine being a club owner and having to worry about that. One thing I HAVE noticed is that the service clubs seem to be MUCH better about getting their people into cabs or driving them home themselves-or the members are there with their wives, who act as designated drivers.(Whether that is actually just an enabling act is for another thread. Point is, the drunk ain't driving).

And I don't buy the "it should be an issue of personal responsibility" bit either. If someone wants to get bombed at home and fall down the stairs, that's fine. But the minute they get on the road and involve me, my wife, or my niece in their death wish, then as I see it, their right to exercise personal responsibility goes out the window.

So I guess I have to agree with the newer laws. Even though it is surely hurting my chances to play out. Now, when I still was drinking, it was a different story. Then we were being persecuted by a bunch of radical puritan crazies and cops using Nazi storm trooper tactics to throw our harmless butts in the can and ruin our fun. Of course, I was a raging alcoholic, and so were all of my friends, so it never occurred to us that we were actually the minority.

I see that a little clearer now. And I think that until a way to regularly get drunks home without them driving themselves is worked out, we as musicians are going to have to nut up and take one for the team-meaning there just aren't going to be as many club gigs as there used to be.

just my 2 cents.

John

------------------
Fulawka D-10 9&5
Mullen Royal Precision D-10 8 & 5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 26 April 2002 at 10:03 AM.]

Post by **Joey Ace** » 26 Apr 2002 3:43 pm

Quite an essay JB.

I'd like to add that I'm always afraid driving home, because I know that after 2AM there's lots of impared drivers.

I've seen red lights run many times, probably by people that never even noticed them.

We've got to find other venues.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 26 Apr 2002 3:52 pm

You're a good man, J.B.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 26 Apr 2002 4:04 pm

Way to go, JB! I'm a recovering alcoholic as well, and am also terrified when I am on the road late at night. We have a couple of good places in my area where alcohol IS served, but the emphasis is on the music, which is as it should be anytime live music is involved. Should cops hassle some guy who's had a couple of brews over the course of a couple of hours, while listening and/or dancing to a good band(hopefully with a killer steel!)? Of course not. And the overworked and underpaid law enforcement folks can't possibly get every drunk driver--So, what's wrong with club owners or bartenders cutting the drunks off? Surely they aren't profit motivated! Haven't we all got war stories to tell about some drunk falling all over our equipment?
As a judge once told me,"You don't just have a drinking problem----you're also a problem when you're drunk."
May God bless you, JB, and keep it up!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 26 Apr 2002 4:35 pm

I agree with Joey, that was quite an essay, JB.

My own sentiments?

I think you should be responsible for your actions regardless of whether you're drinking or not! However, such is not the case anymore. A drinking driver will do jail time (sometimes years) if he kills someone. I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with stupid and irresponsible sober drivers who kill people, and are given the proverbial "hand-slap", and then set free (it happens every day, folks).

Nowadays, a drinking driver who does nothing more than run a red light on a deserted road gets a stiffer penalty than a sober driver who's just wiped out a family...because he or she was going too fast, because they were distracted by their radio, or cell-phone, or because they were going too fast on a wet road with bald tires, or because they fell asleep after working 18 hours straight, etc., etc., etc..

You see, JB, dead is dead, no matter who kills you.

Yes, I find it scary that 48% of all highway deaths are caused by drunk drivers...

...and even scarier that the other 52% of highway deaths are caused by sober drivers!

Think about it.

patrick donovan · Post by **patrick donovan** » 26 Apr 2002 6:20 pm

If you drive drunk you should lose your driving priviledge (it's not a right) for LIFE. Use a designated driver if you want to go bar hopping. I see nothing wrong with drinking in moderation...but when it leads to drunk driving or family violence it should not be tolerated.

My 19 year old son was killed by a drunk driver. Anyone who drives drunk is a stone cold killer, it just a matter of time.

Regards, Patrick

Kevin Mincke · Post by **Kevin Mincke** » 26 Apr 2002 9:54 pm

Ironic, I'm reading this post as I listen to one of my officer's reading the MN implied consent advisory to a female who rear ended a vehicle that was stopped in traffic signaling a left turn. She never attempted to stop indicated by no skid marks left on pavement. Thankfully it was property damage only. Her Lexus SUV was totalled!
It is the person consuming alcohol responsibility to know when impairment starts should that person have to drive. It is also the responsibility of the club (waitress/servers) to stop serving those that are legally intoxicated. The new DUI/DWI laws and penalties were increased because the compliance objective has not been met. When you say "oh by the way, we're forfeiting your vehicle and it will be owned by the City, but your still responsible for the loan" it starts to hurt financially. The State of Mn current law is .10 BAC and has had legislative efforts to lower it to .08 which will probably succeed in one of the sessions. Unfortunately, we arrest drivers well over the .10 limit for DUI and find their passengers are either sober or well under the legal limit. Why? Years ago, I played in several "non-alcholic" clubs that were always packed! Sure, it provides a different atmosphere then ones that serve alcohol but I think you can still have fun without the alcohol. The police shouldn't have to sit outside a club and "lay in wait" to pick up a drunk driver. There are plenty of them on the road before and aft club closing. On the other hand, it may provide that deterrent needed for some not thinking so very well, not to jump in a vehicle and try to drive. Yes, I have arrested those who saw me drive by in a squad, made eye contact, stagger to their vehicle and still got in to drive. Friendly reminder?
I think we have come a long way with respect to DUI/DWI recognition & enforcement but there's more to be done. Some quick facts, In MN 40% of all traffic fatalities are alcohol related. Speed is the leading factor in fatal crashes. Inattentive driving is the leading cause of injury accidents & the second highest cause for fatal crashes.Two thirds of Minnesotans killed in crashes were not wearing seat belts. Seat belt use reduces the chance of dying in a crash by 50%. Injuries from traffic accidents are the leading cause of death of people ages 1 to 34. "You provide the alcohol, we'll provide the chaser". "Friends don't let friends drive drunk" and it goes on and on. Thanks for the comments! It's time to end as my officer is done with his DUI arrest but stay SAFE!!
Your ability to drive is not your RIGHT, it is a PRIVELEDGE as stated earlier!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 26 Apr 2002 11:27 pm

As I recall, the statistic here in LA is, after 2 am, every 5th car is a drunk driver.

Skip Cole · Post by **Skip Cole** » 27 Apr 2002 12:38 am

I really appreciate the posts on this topic, and would like to thank each of you for your insight into one of the most disturbing topics that is contrary to public safty. Tonight i was able to do what is known as a "ride along" with one of our cities finest police officers, on his patrol. All went surprisingly well for a Friday night in a small town, during a springfest , a hockey match, and tons of traffic heading to the nearby casinos. The only "incident" i was able to witness was a motorist who ran a traffic signal. Big deal, right? Well, the kicker is that the driver was DUI and never noticed the blue lights or the spots, that is until she walked to the door of the liquor store where she had stopped. Oh yeah, the arresting officer gave her a field sobriety test, which she failed with flying colors. The next thing that happened was the trip in the back of the cruiser, in cuffs, to have a BA test, and spend the night in the tank until she could be bonded out. And one of the worse things this person should be guilty of, imho, is child neglect, because her 14 year old daughter was in the car with her when all this took place. The officer also allowed the young lady to use his cell phone to call her dad to come take her home. None of us are above reproach, but DUI, to me, is like a time bomb ; never know when, who, or how many, are going to suffer. Go ahead your honor, allow the officers to do their job and tag the DUI's before they kill someone, maybe one of my family. God bless you all.

------------------
"Steel guitar is where it are"

Bruce Wutzke · Post by **Bruce Wutzke** » 27 Apr 2002 1:30 am

Donny, you make a good point that gets me boiling. It seems that running a red light or stop sign is an 'accepted' way to kill.
Issue a ticket, sweep up the glass, and haul the victims off. BUT, one hint of alcohol and then it's vehicular homicide.
I'm not bashing the DUI mission, just wondering why other causes of death aren't being worked on as vigorously. Is it easier to inform the family..."you just lost a loved one in a car crash, but its not so bad cause the other guy wasn't drunk."

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 Apr 2002 2:22 am

Yes, this is a major issue in our country,and it is not just the late night clubs that produce impaired drivers. It happens all day every day. The DUI penalty is at most a modest hand slap. How many times have we seen or heard of a person arrested who had 3 or 4 prior DUI 's ? It's common. When the penalty is more severe than a handslap or loss of license for 30 days ( and they don't stop driving anyway ) perhaps those that are impaired my reconsider what lies in front of them. My good friend and co-worker's daughter in law here in NC was just hit head-on by a drunk driver on a saturday afternoon. The woman drunk driver and her daughter were killed and my friends family , daughter in law and 4 children were all injured to the extreme . The youngest, 7 years old , is severely burned and she just came out of a coma after 8 weeks. Put someone in jail for 6 months ( mandatory ) with a heavy fine for drunk driving and their life will change dramatically. When they come out of jail, they probably won't have a job, probably will have lost their home ..etc...and at the end of the day that would be a small price to pay to still be alive and to possibly save a life.

just my radical view
tp[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 April 2002 at 06:24 AM.]

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 27 Apr 2002 5:01 am

I was reading your posts with a geat deal of sadness, a few years ago when I was in charge of the Casualty Dept in a hospital in England, I had the very sad duty to inform a young couple that I and the team I worked with, had been unable to save the life of their three and a half year old, only son, who had been knocked down in such an accident. I never got over it.

------------------
Ron (Chippy) Wood
Carter S10/Pad

Matt Steindl · Post by **Matt Steindl** » 27 Apr 2002 8:30 am

I have it good, if I want to go out and tie one on, I take my bike or walk, as I live right outside of the French Quarter, and have over 200 bars w/ in a 2 minute bike ride.

Wish I could figure a way to get my gear to gigs on a bike. Funny thing, is that all of the street musicians in the Quarter have little trailer rigs they tow behing their bikes to get their gear to work. Pretty funny sight seein an upright piano being rolled down the street ant 10am.

------------------
Mattman in "The Big Sleazy"-:
S-10 Dekley, Suitcase Fender Rhodes, B-bender Les Paul

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 27 Apr 2002 9:37 am

Bruce - good point.

I used to have a job where I drove cars around Nashville 8 hours a day/night, and I would say that 98% of the near misses or actual wrecks I saw or was involved in (which usually happened several times a day) resulted from apparently sober drivers just driving badly. A bad driver is a bad driver, sober or drunk. Drunk, they're just worse. But a good driver is not necesssarily a bad driver at .10 BAC.

C#

Perry Hansen · Post by **Perry Hansen** » 27 Apr 2002 11:14 am

There was a family in Concord, Calif. a few years back that had a bus service to and from Bars. At that time for 5.00, they would take you to any bar in the area. They would call the clubs just before reaching it to find out if there were anyone needing a ride. They had two busses. The last time I talked to the owner, he was shutting it down because the insurance was killing him.. But it sure cut down on drunk drivers.
Perry

Joey Gaskins · Post by **Joey Gaskins** » 28 Apr 2002 1:02 pm

I've been on the receiving end of a druck driver twice so I have no sympathy for ever how much it cost them or how much inconvience they have to go through. I watch a surgeon put in over one hundred stitched in my daughters face because someone claimed I didn't see the stop sign.
Whenever I see someone drinking and driving I call 911. I drive a truck so I can see into the cars real easy. Next time you get pulled it may have been me that called. I hope so!!

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 28 Apr 2002 9:17 pm

The alcohol industry is now a 110 billion industry, as much as we spend on education in this country. That kind of money can buy influence at the federal, state and local levels, shape favorable laws and control politicans. In this resort area the papers report arrests weeky and DUI and drug use and trafficing are at the top of the list! Some of these people have a half-dozen or more arrests, serve little or no jail time and continue driving on suspended licenses. The problem has grown beyond the capacity of local law enforcement to control it. Cases were backed up so far after Christmas that a local judge dismissed many of them because the court system didn't have the time or resources to process them. Bars near the University of Tennessee are regularly cited and fined for selling to underage students, but the fine is so small it only amounts to a nominal cost for doing business. Come visit the beautiful Smokys, but drive defensively the whole time you are here.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 28 Apr 2002 10:05 pm

Being a former club owner I've seen my share of drunks. I've been yelled at and almost been in a fight more than once because I took someones keys and didn't give them back until the next day. It goes with the territory. You can't stop all of them from leaving drunk and being in Nashville you don't know how many bars they were in before they came to yours so it's a hit and miss how many they've had. Some hold it a lot better than others and it's hard to tell sometimes how far gone someone is and for a new bartender it takes some on the job training to be able to tell.
What it takes is responsible drivers. A hard core drunk will go to get a drink no matter what because their body needs that drink to keep from being sick so driving drunk doesn't matter to them. I know a guy that got a DUI in 1988 and has driven drunk ever since. He's totalled his wifes car and somehow been lucky enough to escape jail all this time. He was pulled over for lane changing about a month ago and has finally been made to pay all his fines and get a new license. Guess what, he's still driving drunk. It's easier to drive drunk then get sober and a lot more fun to him. He's just not going to ever sober up period because he doesn't care. I know another guy that took a different approach. He's had over ten DUI's for as little as drinking one beer and driving and sometimes more but it seems he always got caught no matter what. Finally he says to me "I figured I'd have to quit drinking or quit driving so I quit driving." It sounds funny but at least he's off the road. What it takes is responsible drivers period. You can drink coffee or something else when you go out, I do. What I have a problem with is the people who drove drunk all those years or smoked all those years and now that they quit they want the rest of the world to quit too. It doesn't work that way.
Here's another thing to think about. For all of those people who go down to the corner store for beer and never go bar hopping or drive drunk, wonder how much influence they're having on their kids who see them drink? Wonder how much domestic violence comes into the picture? You think they fight more at home because they're drunk? You bet. So which one is the best way to go? If everyone didn't drink then we wouldn't have near as many places to play. I'd prefer to play the non-alcoholic places where the kids run around and they sell pies but without the bars more than half of us wouldn't play out.[This message was edited by Frank Parish on 28 April 2002 at 11:21 PM.]

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 1 May 2002 4:38 am

I agree with Frank. There's at least one "regular" at every bar in the U.S. that can't be "themselves" without alcohol. They'd rather drive to the bar just so they don't have to drink alone. Then they drive home. It's difficult, if not impossible for the management or individual bartenders to cut them off or get them to admit they're too plowed under drunk to drive.

At least here in Texas they're starting to crack down on alcohol related deaths. There's very strict (and necessary) punishments for selling to minors, and even liabilities for people that leave a bar and hurt themselves or others after they're gone. I think it's good, but to an extent. There's people that can hold their liquor, and there's people that can't. Let's say there's a packed bar and 3 bartenders working behind it. What's the chances that the bartender will be able to assess the sobriety of EVERY patron of the bar, pour drinks, count change, check ID's, and everything else that's going on at the same time? It's pretty durned tough. I think, if somebody's going to drive drunk, it's their decision. I know I've driven when I shouldn't have, and thank Goodness I didn't hurt anyone. But on the other hand, there's been plenty of times when I've heard that little voice in the back of my head telling me to just leave the truck for the night and come back to get it in the morning.

Just my two pennies.

Garnett

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 1 May 2002 3:47 pm

According to MADD's website 40% of fatal traffic accidents in 2000 were alcohol-related. I wonder just what the alcohol relationship was - was the driver who caused the wreck drunk? Was the victim drunk? How many were over .10? Did someone run over a beer bottle and get a blowout?

I've been in maybe a dozen minor wrecks, none of which were my fault, and only one of those drivers was drunk, and he was a big-wig TN politician.

Seems to me that some activist group should be investigating what caused the other 60%. They're more likely to get ya than a drunk.

But, you know, it's a racket, just like everything else. Lawyers, cops, tow truck drivers, and bail bondsmen have to make a living too. Too bad they're getting some of the money that people used to spend on us - on live entertainment.

C#[This message was edited by Cal Sharp on 01 May 2002 at 04:52 PM.]

Fred Layman · Post by **Fred Layman** » 1 May 2002 5:56 pm

Can any problem be solved when everyone involved denies responsibility and passes it on to someone else? Where does the buck stop?

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 1 May 2002 9:38 pm

I'll bet that quite a few forumites could not pass a drunk test even stone cold sober,if stopped by the police. I know I couldn't. Old age, poor health, prescription drugs, injuries, poor health, stress, or just being very tired after a hard day/nights work would affect many of us. Just try to stand on one leg while holding the other up in front of you while looking straight up. Now hold that position for 20 seconds or so. See what I mean? And yes, you will go to jail if you don't pass for any reason and if you've taken your medication you will be convicted just as if you were drunk on your a$$. And if you do drink and drive and then think better of it and pull off the road into a shopping mall to sleep it off, make sure that you don't listen to the radio cuz the cops will take you to jail and you will be convicted because you left the key in the ignition! If the laws get any stiffer we may as well go back to prohibition.

Chippy Wood · Post by **Chippy Wood** » 2 May 2002 12:06 am

This was an extract given to all employees of an large Electrical Supplier to show some of the penalties incurred in other countries.

Extracts from a Safety Bulletin

DRINK PENALTIES AROUND THE WORLD

As the season of good cheer is now upon us we felt it would be interesting to reflect on the subject of people drinking alcohol then driving. In this country it carries a social stigma as well as liability for severe punishments, for example:-

Russia Licence revoked for life
Malaysia Driver jailed and if married then wife is imprisoned as well
Bulgaria For second offence the driver is executed
El Salvador No second chance, drunk drivers executed by firing squad

------------------
Ron (Chippy) Wood
Carter S10/Pad

Ed Kuhns · Post by **Ed Kuhns** » 2 May 2002 8:05 am

JB--Great post, and it's worth a lot more than 2 cents. I hope everyone in the SG community can appreciate this problem and regards it with the utmost seriousness. If you drink and drive or pass the buck you are part of the problem. Please everyone, do your part to make this situation better. Ed

Doug Garrick · Post by **Doug Garrick** » 2 May 2002 7:33 pm

The only people I know that died in traffic crashes in the last 12 years were at the hands of drunk drivers. Four friends, 1 in my car and 3 in a musician friend of mine daughter's car (her husband and two of their three children). Both of the drunk drivers died. I am 60% deaf because of the same drunk driver that killed my friend.

( Both happened on April 6th, 11 years apart)

Sure there are other reasons for traffic fatalities, but from where I sit I think any legislation that may help prevent drunk driving fatalities is well founded.

Doug Garrick