Doing More With Less

Rusty Hurse · From: Hendesonville, Tn

Do you think the over the past 4 to five years there has been a trend to use less pedals and knee levers on guitars.I remember years ago that alot of us and I was real guilty of putting to many changes on my guitars.Maybe I put them on there so I would have them, but found out later that I did not use some of the changes that much. In the early 70's some of the players had 10 pedals and as many knee levers as you could put on a guitar.Well I guess now that I am much older and a lot wiser and more knowledgeable about the tunings themselves, my guitar is back to 8 floor pedals and 5 knee levers. When I ordered my first Derby the guitar came with 8 pedals and 7 knee levers like I wanted.The more I played the guitar the more I wanted to CONDENSE some of the changes.So I took off 2 of the C6 knee levers and combine them with my LKL and LKR on the E9th.Now I really did not lose anything it just made thing earier to get to.My setup now has everything on E9th and C6 and I find the guitar much easier to play with out losing anything.Now when playing I am not contemplating looking for a lever or pedal it is right there. You will focus much more on your playing when you are more comfortable with your guitar.Too many players get caught up in having ever change that their favorite players have on their guitars.Well that is fine but consider the added expense that you are paying to have the toys on the guitar, more to tune ,added weight, more to adjust, etc.......We have all been guilty of this I guess at sometime or another to LOAD THEM UP!To me a steel guitar stays in tune much better when it is not loaded.This also goes along with basic physics, for every action there is a reaction.Think of the human anatomy with only two knees how many levers can you play at one time, and STAY IN TUNE.This includes pedals too while you are pushing those knee levers.I sure would like to see a discussion on this. Bobbe Seymour only has two knee levers on his guitar now!You all know what a great player he is too. He sounded great at the store when I was there a couple of weeks back.However, Bobbe would sound good on anything if it had nothing at all.Look at Lloyd Green and his guitar and we all know how great he sounds and has as long as I can remember.Talant and knowledge of the instrument, not how many pulls you got,knowing when to use the pulls or pushes in the RIGHT place is the KEY.Open this up with your opinions! Thanks

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I find in my case that I tend to make up for lack of talent with the addition of foot pedals and knee levers. I figure that by the time I have 50 foot pedals and 50 knee levers on my guitar, I should be sounding quite nice.

Uff-Da!

James Winwood · From: New York, New York

Some good points Rusty. Knowing when to use your pulls in the right place certainly is the key. I think a lot of has to do with what style of music your playing. I want as many allowable tensions as possible for each inversion of a given chord. I'm talking upper structures of chords. I could be thinking completely in super imposition. (ex. playing a d minor triad over a C major sound gives you the 9th, 11th, and 13th) But, especially given my level of skill, I look at things based off a root on the same fret. I'm sure most players do this. In this case, I like the idea of being able to get what notes I need to harmonize at the bar, not having to jump to another inversion because of, say, one note that I need. It depends on your personal visualization of the fretboard.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

To "do more with less", 'ya gotta be good!

"Hardware don't impress me, but good pickin' do!"

John Knight · From: Alaska

I agree with Donny, I like an 8 + 4 or 8 + 5 set up. There is a lot to find in that alone. I have a good reminder of palying more with less. I have a 30 min tape of my dad, Lee Knight, playing a D-10 8 + 1 and the 1 knee lever only worked the E9th string 2 and 8. After hours of listening and trying to find the melodic voicing or passages they still remain a mystery. He truley could do more with less.

------------------
D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&4
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

The assumption that an 8+4 or 8+5 is all you need implies that you have less C6 knee levers. The extra knee levers on an 8+7 or 8+8 are C6 knee levers. If anything is implied by this, it is that players are giving up on advancing C6 beyond Western swing. I believe that to play modern jazz and pop on C6, you need 7-8 total knee levers so that you have 4-5 operating on C6, which is the same number that operate on E9 (2 knee levers usually work on both necks). I don't think your topic implies that players are doing more with less. It implies, to me at least, the C6 is not being advanced by enough people.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I suppose it would not be an issue to just play with say 2 , 3 or 4 knee levers on the E9. But there are a few changes that are very "Pleasing" and "addicting" which I am trying to graduate or grow into so I don't look at it as doing more with less but rather trying to learn more with what I got which is 5 knee levers .
tp
TPrior_SteelGuitarWebsite

Rusty Hurse · From: Hendesonville, Tn

Jimmy Day sure played a lot of swing and jazz on the C6 neck by just lowering his C to B. I think Bobby Garrett did to!I think Buddy only had that change also for awhile but maybe he will chime in here and tell us.Tommy Morrell does not use pedals or knee levers at all and 10 strings but Tommy always has been a walking music theory genius.The point I am making is that you can put all your changes for both necks on 4 or 5 knee levers and you do not have to move your knee in and out of the guitar . Just flip the neck switch and you can still be Happening!

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

I don't know about others, but if I did not move my knee out of the E9th left knee levers, I would never be able to reach my C6th pedals 5 through 9, or at least comfortably. Also adding the C6 changes on to the E9 knees would make them harder to activate. This is already happens on the right knee. I wish I could have a lever to change the right knee changes from E9 to C6 to make them easier to push. I guess this is a good argument for the crossover model guitars.

------------------
Carter D10 9p/10k
Richard Sinkler

Tom Jordan · From: Wichita, KS

Rusty, good topic...I recently changed over from a D10 8/4 to a U12 5/5. I too, like less mechanics and more bar movment...different strokes, I guess.

My pedal/knee arrangement gives me the basic ABC567 set up with a few "secret" moves left over and I have never been happier. I do not miss pedals 4 & 8 at all. The more options I had, the more I tended to think and play mechanically.

I dunno, maybe this limits me but then again I like the steel as it applies to C&W, Country Rock and Western Swing. I know alot of people are experimenting with different types of music and that is a good thing for our instrument...just not my style.

As far as Jazz is concerned, it seems to be a "technical" music and does nothing for my soul. This is not an insult and I admire all that understand it and play it well. Buddy Emmons has performed it well and from listening, he seems to do it more with the bar movements than the pedal/knee movements. To me, that is the beauty of the instrument and not some contraption that has as many gadgets as a piano has keys.

Just me,

Tom Jordan

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Richard:
I'm with you! I can't see using the left leg knee levers for the C6th neck. I plan on adding a separate set of left knee levers for the C6th changes. If for no other reason than to help position my leg over the C6th foot pedals.

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Ya gotta be REAL careful drawing your distinctions between Western swing, which has some jazz elements, and modern jazz which works off of complex extended chords, and modal playing, where each chord implies a different scale. It is in this context that I feel requires a substantive knee lever setup that allows you to access the scales and extensions. We're talking a lot more than a I,VI,II,V,I progression. The fact that a basic 5+1 steup doesn't have the A -> Bb alone pull speaks volumes for the fact that it is restrictive when you get beyond it's basic Western swing roots. This does not change that fact the much incredible playing has been on the non-pedal and a 5+1 copedent. I just feel that you need more when you go past that. IMO, of course.

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

Ditto's Jeff! It's one thing to have too many unneccessary "lick" pedals (on E9 for instance), but quite another if you don't want to let piano players have all the fun in the harmony department. I'm a big fan of at least 5 knees on C6....even though we all know how many great things can and have been done on a 6 string lap steel.

Roger Shackelton · From: MINNESOTA (deceased)

Bill Rudolph at The Williams Guitar Co. in Minnesota, makes a D-10 400X, 5 X 5 crossover guitar. This D-10 400X Guitar is the equivalent of a 10 X 10 guitar. The crossover mechanism is simple and super quiet. It should satisfy those who want more with less.

Roger

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

Quesney Gibbs · From: Anniston, AL

I have only three knee levers on my guitar and find that perhaps there are some changes I cannot make I still have enough to play mostly everything I wish to play.

I have the standard E's raise and lower and use the other lever to lower my 2nd and 9th string 1/2 tone each. It has worked for me for many more years than I want to think about.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Wait untill you see Bobbe Seymour's two knee lever method. It will shock you.

Bob Tuttle · From: Republic, MO 65738

When are we going to get to see it?

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

This thread reminds me of a standing argument between to opposing sides in woodworking.

One group is dead set against ANY form of power tool. The other says, "If it aint got a power cord on it I don't care to use it".

A good example is two popular PBS TV show:

1. The Roy Underhill show using 1800+ yrs' tooling. Hand planes, chisels, hand boring tools, etc. NO way would Roy uses ANY tool with a power cord on it.

2. The other is the very popular "New Yankee Workshop" hosted by Norm Abram. If there is a power tool he has not used on the show, I do not know what it is. And he is a master crafstmen using them.

Now, my comments are as follows. There is NO law that says a steel guitar play Has to have knee levers. OR more poignantly, pedals either!!

BUT, and this an important point. There is NO law that says one can't have as many of these gimcracks as he wishes.

And there should be no rule stating how many is too much. OR too few.

Jimmy crawford has often had 10 pedals and 12 knee levers on a given guitar. AND he uses EVERYONE of them with great ease and comfort. Or so it appears when one watches his wizardry while playing.

Jerry Byrd scoffs at the use of ANY pedal or knee levers. And there ain't NO body on this whole Earth that can play better than him.

So IMHO, it boils down to a very old and boring cliche';

"What ever floats your.........!"

God bless you all,

carl

Rick Schmidt · From: Prescott AZ, USA

I guess for me the main reason that I want the levers I want (on C6 mostly), is for unaccompanied/solo chord-melody type playing. Much in the same way that a piano player or Lenny Breau style guitarist can freely play "all the parts"...i.e. bass, chords, & melody. For that I have a D12/10+6. For most of the band stuff that I usually do, I'm happy with my D10/8+2.

Rusty Hurse · From: Hendesonville, Tn

Well here it is for those that have emailed me. The E9th is the standard Emmons set up with the exception of the 4th pedal on E9th lower 5th 6th and 10th whole tone or PF pedal. LKL Raises E's to F on E9th and Lowers A to Ab on C6TH .LKV lowers on E9th B's to Bb. on C6th lowers E to Eb and and raises ^6th string E to F. LKR lowers E's to Eb on E9th and raises the A to A# on C6th. RKL on E9th raise 1 stringF# to G 2string D# to E and lowers 6th string to F#. On the C6th it raises C to C # .RKR lower on E9thD# to D to C# on 2nd string and lowers 9th string D to C#. On C6th it lowers C to B. I use a D note on first string on C6th and I raise it to D# on the 8th pedal .and on the 4th pedal I took raising A to B off and i lower the 5th stringG to F#. The rest is just the standard C6th floor set up including 5 through the 8th pedals.I have no truuble reaching the pedals with my left foot on the C6th neck and playing the left knee levers at all. I think one reason is the Knee levers are about 2 inches to the right down toward the changer on the left knees. They are not stiff like you might think because of the adjustment under the guitar. i also use my right foot to on some of the C6th changes along with my left foot.

Forum Index > Steel Players		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic