Lloyd Green Tone Statement,

David Biagini · Post by **David Biagini** » 5 Mar 2002 6:51 pm

I think Donny's three "T's" is about as complete a description as you will find as to why a musician sounds they way he/she does. I wish I had said it!

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 5 Mar 2002 7:14 pm

Accurately define the smell of a rose. You know what it smells like. You know how pleasing the fragrance is but put it in definitive words. Sometimes certain things are best left to our senses than to try to define their exactness.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 5 Mar 2002 7:38 pm

Roses? They always remind me of what it smells like at a funeral visitation

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Mar 2002 7:59 pm

Wow Mike! Great anology! I didn't realize you were so perceptive! I have new found respect for you !! And I'm serious! Guess I have to stop with this "big dummy" thing.
I think we all should remember the thousands of sessions,hundreds of road jobs,and the great pressures Lloyd has endured and the intelligence he has before we ever think we have the right to question his great experience and knowledge on this or several other topics concerning steel guitar. It's fun to kid around with this wonderful legend, and I will pick on him as much as anyone, however, I will as I feel we all should, show him the respect he deserves.And he deserves the utmost in respect, as do many others, Buddy, Weldon,Hal,Tommy,and MANY others that should not go un-named but will have to now because of bOb's lack of hard drive space. They all have my deepest respect,and will 'till I die.
Robert K. Seymour

I respect you too bOb!

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Mar 2002 8:08 pm

Tone? I was just kidding, I hate tone, tone sucks, I think all steels should sound like OOGA horns. There is no bad, there is no good, It doesn't matter, tone just starts fights and makes everyone mad! I think the world should do away with the word "TONE" then, we could choose another topic to discuss. Like, COLOR!! Black is best! Lloyd says NO, GREEN is best! Tommy says NO, White is better, and the fight goes on until we outlaw color, Then we can argue about string breakage! No, sorry, we've already done that, well then-----------------------------------? Hey, I started this thread, I can end it this way if I want to!

Just kidding, it's not over yet, is it? [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 March 2002 at 08:10 PM.][This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 March 2002 at 08:11 PM.]

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 5 Mar 2002 8:13 pm

Bobbe, I'm still your BIG DUMMY.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Mar 2002 8:18 pm

Now you understand why I settled for "Acceptable Tone".

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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 5 Mar 2002 10:11 pm

Jim, I was wondering what you would have to say about all this considering your tag!

This post started out with so many vague comments that I wasn't really sure what we were talking about here. But after reading more comments and giving it a little thought, this is my take.

From my experience, aside from instrument,amp,settings,etc. I think the most important factor in getting good tone is in good right hand technique. Specifically, the way the strings are "plucked" (pick angle, attack and palm positition).

Am I close Bobbee, anyone?

Kenny Forbess · Post by **Kenny Forbess** » 5 Mar 2002 10:47 pm

Steve,I totally agree with your example of how the right hand plays into the tone,
but the left hand ,in my opinion,is equally as important to getting good tone,watch Mr.Green's left hand really close next time you have a chance to watch him play,he's all over it.
Kenny

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 5 Mar 2002 10:52 pm

Yes, I really feel you are correct Steve Miller, Right hand, where and how you pick, Guitar timbre,the amp affects the amount of treble , bass etc, but if you arn't getting a good tone by the time you get to the amp, the amp isn't going to save you. A good guitar and good right hand.is giong to sound good no matter what good amp you use, Standell, Webb, Peavey, Sho-Bud, Emmons, Fender,Polytone,Evans, it doesn't really matter as long as your guitar and right hand know what they are doing.[This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 05 March 2002 at 10:53 PM.]

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 6 Mar 2002 12:22 am

Donny's 3 T's very concisely serve as a practical definition for much of what we're talking about. Mike's "rose" story pointed toward elements that are harder to express. It is my impression that Mr. Green was touching on those elements when he wrote about tone coming from thoughtfullness and maturity- the honest expression of a life well lived. A saying comes to mind about how to paint a perfect picture- "make yourself perfect, and then paint naturally". Of course none of us can claim to be perfect.....hang on a second.....(Bobbe- I see you've raised your hand-

).
Love, beauty and truth are impossible to talk about in their pure form- ineffable. IMHO it is because these things are alive, like us, and cannot be stuffed down and defined.
They can, however, come out as Music.
Maybe that is what Lloyd was suggesting in the first post. Seems pretty universal to me.
T. Sage Harmos[This message was edited by Sage on 06 March 2002 at 12:37 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 6 Mar 2002 9:57 am

Your tone is your fingerprint, that's all!

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 6 Mar 2002 10:49 am

Well I'm no authority on the whole matter but when it comes to the idea of good tone coming from with-in the musician ; back in the days of playing regular gigs, beer and bratwurts, I've heard some right respectable tones and some that were lacking somewhat come from with-in the guys on the stage and speaking of roses ?? no way !!!! The smell wasn't akin at all !!! -

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 6 Mar 2002 12:37 pm

WOW! I haven't signed on it a few days and look at the hornets nest Bobbe has stirred up.
IMHO Tone is what happens when your playing abilities reach a level that allows your soul to come through in your playing. I can appreciate many tones. I agree with Lloyd's original statement.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Mar 2002 1:09 pm

Randy and Bill, I agree with you both and with most all of the others here. I do a tone post about evey six months to keep things stired up. This is a very important aspect of steel guitar that we all need to continually be aware of, be thinking about and try to be improving on. Steel players get hired for the total package of what they can add to a band or a record session. It really hurts me to have a potential band leader or session leader say : "naw, I don't think we're gonna' use a whinney steel guitar this time", "I don't like the way they sound." Fellow friends and players, this hurts us all. This is why I am always harping on this subject. I want us all to sound great! If I can help at all, this can be my meager help to the promotion of my favorite instrument in the world. I am lucky to be in this position to help players to be the best that they can be. I'm here to do what I can for steel , like we all should , and most do.
Randy Beavers, You are one of the finest in my book, several hiding players have come out of hiding to post on this subject, this in it's self is a wonderful thing. I am very happy with the thought this subject has been given by all of you!!!!!
No matter how well you can play, bad tone makes you sound "not to well " to the uneducated ear.
More thoughts from you all??

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 6 Mar 2002 1:12 pm

Randy, I also agree with Lloyds original statement, to the letter! That's what started all this! (Ha! Ha!)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 6 Mar 2002 3:55 pm

(An e-mail I received that said, in effect, "Who are you to argue with the likes of Lloyd Green and Bobbe Seymour???" prompted this post.)

I thank all of those who, from time to time, agree with my opinions. I also thank those who disagree, for without them...this would be an informative but boring place. My goal is never to try to change someone else's opinion, for that is a formidible challenge for even the best of debaters. Rather, my desire is to just make people think on their own. I feel that too many times, people blindly take the advice of others (especially if those "others" possess much notoriety) without formulating their own opinions based on their own research. While it may be good to occasionally do "such and such", or "think this way" because "so and so" says it's best, we actually grow very little that way. I think that personal experience is sometimes better (though slower, and more costly) than experience gained merely by adopting someone else's opinion or methods, whoever that person may be.

We have a lot of talent here on the FORUM, both in professional as well as non-professional ranks. From the famous players such as Lloyd, Buddy, Bobbe, and the others who post here, come such things as refinement, taste, and professional wisdom. And from those many newer and lesser-knowns (as well as the older unknowns, such as myself

) comes enthusiasm, variety, and sometimes...friendly counterpoint.

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 6 Mar 2002 3:59 pm

IMHO Tone is what happens when your playing abilities reach a level that allows your soul to come through in your playing.

I thought my soul had busted through one day during a jam session; then and all of a sudden I realized my third string had popped.

Rick
[This message was edited by Rick Collins on 06 March 2002 at 04:00 PM.]

Allen · Post by **Allen** » 6 Mar 2002 4:47 pm

From a strugling begineers view, let me say THANKS. This is one of the most educational, insightful and interesting threads I have read.
I now have a better idea of what I am striving for.
Mr. Green, Mr. Seymour, and all of the other contributors, Thanks.

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Allen Harry
Mullen D-10, 8 & 6
Nashville 1000

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 6 Mar 2002 4:48 pm

......Well said, Donny!

Ervin McMullen · Post by **Ervin McMullen** » 6 Mar 2002 5:13 pm

Bobbe; It's a treat to hear your comments on the Forum. I just recently joined (rather than just peeking through the crack). Thanks for your time on the telephone today and your help in discribing tone to me and the differences of a Franklin U12 tone from the Emmons PP you sold me. After three tours in Vietnam any tone I hear is filtered through a couple of broken and scarred eardrums but your playing still sounds the best to me. Thanks for all of your help. This rookie appreciates it alot.

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 6 Mar 2002 5:19 pm

I think tone is like an opinion. When I was in school I had a teacher who made a comment that opinions are never wrong. He then explained that if two people were given the same book to read each would have a different opinon of that book. One might have thought it was the greatest book they ever read for whatever reasons while the other might have thought it was the worst book they ever read for whatever reasons. Both have their own opinions and in their own minds they are right so an opinion is never wrong.
Here is a challange if anyone is game to try it. Record 3 simple mp3 files that can be downloaded. The first having great tone, the second having acceptible tone and the third having the worst tone you could possibly get.
Now let the forum members decide which had the best tone and I would be willing to bet you will get all different answeres on which one they thought was the best, and the worst.
When I purchased my new carter I liked the sound of the 710 pickup while my wife liked the sound one of the others. So who was right and who was wrong?
Just my 2 cents worth.
Regards to all,
George

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 6 Mar 2002 5:50 pm

Lloyd Green says that tone isn't subjective. Yet when I asked "what is tone?", I got a lot of subjective answers (and, to be fair, a few objective ones).

Now, I get a lot of different sounds out of my pedal steel. I switch pickups, effects and amp settings at the drop of a hat. I like most of the sounds I get. How can I know, objectively speaking, if this sound or that one is "acceptable tone"? What characteristics of the sound should I be listening for?

I think that good tone is related to context. The 3 elements that Donny described (tone, timbre and technique) have to fit well into what the other musicians are playing. The instrument has to be well defined, not "lost in the mix". That particular quality is, as Lloyd Green says, not subjective.

What other non-subjective measurements of good tone can we come up with here?

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Ervin McMullen · Post by **Ervin McMullen** » 6 Mar 2002 6:41 pm

I'm just a rookie when it comes to steel guitar tones but I'm an architect and I have done a number of television, radio,sound studios and churches where the control of sound is critical. Typically in churches our sound engineers want us to design for 1 1/2 second reverb time to achieve the optimum conditions for singing and instruments (doesn't work that well for the spoken word so we modify the acoustics electronically). For studio design we generally design the space to be "dead". The idea is that it is currently possible to create any desired sound conditions in a physical environment artificially using electronics. I would think (again only an intuative guess) that with the early Emmons and ShoBuds the physical design and construction of the instrument was more critical since the available electronic enhancements were not available then. I would suspect that with the plethora of electric gadgets available today Bobbe Seymour could make my pathetic playing sound good in one of his studios. It seems that because of the great strides in electronic sound enhancement equipment steel guitar construction has shifted from the science of developing inherent tone in the instrument running through simple amplifiers (as in the early instruments) to one of developing instruments that have wonderful mechanics (similar to the acoustically neutral spaces I design for sound studios) that rely to a greater extent on artifical sound enhancement using electrinic equipment. In my experience I have seen millions of dollars of sound equipment placed in my buildings who's sole purpose is to create artifically any architectural environment the sound engineer can imagine. If this contribution is all wet forgive me I apologize.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 7 Mar 2002 7:25 am

"I didn’t sound whiney, high-pitched and nasally". Someone said to me once, "I like country music except for that whiney thing in the background".