Lloyd Green Tone Statement,

Roy Thomson · Post by **Roy Thomson** » 4 Mar 2002 8:07 pm

I think we can draw a parallel with great singers. They were born with great voices, great tone. Of course the voice has to be developed through training etc. but
the point is they were born with that certain
potential for greatness. You know them when you hear them. In a way I think the same principle applys to steel guitarists, as well as other instruments.
The good news is that we do not all have to be great as the greatest to be successfull or to get the most out of our lives.
Reach for a high standard in your playing, work at it and let the "chips" fall where they may.

Jerry Erickson · Post by **Jerry Erickson** » 4 Mar 2002 8:13 pm

I've been listening to Roger Miller's "A Trip in the Country" LP pretty regularly for about 26 years give or take a few. Buddie's tone on that some of the tunes of that album sometime makes me go ???,maybe it was the recording engineer. But,what he's playing and the songs he's playing on make me hit the replay button a lot. I admit,that in a live situation, good tone(tone that I find enjoyable) is going to make me want to listen to that person for a longer period than a person's tone that I don't enjoy. End of rant.

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 4 Mar 2002 8:35 pm

When Bird first came on the scene, his tone, the sound he got from his horn, was pilloried.

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 4 Mar 2002 8:52 pm

Who is Lloyd Green?

Dave Horch · Post by **Dave Horch** » 4 Mar 2002 9:13 pm

I smell ribs! Boy I love that smell! Whatcha like? Wet or dry?

Seriously, "tone" is subjective and so not up for debate. You either like it or not. It's 90% in the hands of the player, IMO. I've swapped pickups, changed amps, plugged and unplugged outboard gear, until I made my ears happy. At the moment, they're happy, but man</> I'd love some of those ribs right now!

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Mar 2002 9:23 pm

Roy Thomson-
There is nothing wrong with your tone...al

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Mar 2002 9:25 pm

Weirauch, all I can say is that it's a good thing you're comfortable around dead people...

Kenny Davis · Post by **Kenny Davis** » 4 Mar 2002 9:53 pm

I have to agree with erik about a person not having to be a musician to identify good tone. My Dad who is 74, and NOT a musician, is a perfect example. In the last several months he has surprised me with certain observations: While watching Pam Tillis on the Opry, he commented on how good the steel sounded..."sounds like a Sho~Bud" he said. Sure enough, the camera proved him correct! The last weird comment was the other night when Hank Jr. was on. I asked him if he saw that pretty black Pro II...He says "yeah I did, but it sounded more like an Emmons than a Sho~Bud". I was thinking the same thing -

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Mar 2002 12:39 am

I hate to come along here and rain on this beautiful parade, but I still have a question about what's being said here. One famous player says "tone" comes from "inside the musician". Another famous player says "builders need to use their ears".

I think one is talking playing technique, and the other is talking the sound quality of the instrument. I still want to know...

Who (besides me, that is

) are the sucky-tone players?

And...

What are the sucky-tone guitars?

If it's not "subjective" (as I contend it is, by the way), let's get it out in the open and be done with this "tone thing" once and for all!!!

I eagerly await someone's answer!

Martin Weenick · Post by **Martin Weenick** » 5 Mar 2002 2:03 am

You can hear the "tone" the very first time Lloyd touches the strings on the Lloyd and Tommy " E-9th " video. Thats not the guitar or the amp, or anything else. Thats just Lloyd. I would have known it was Lloyd if I had been in another room, although at first I probably would have thought he was playing his Sho-Bud. It definately comes from within. Why cant I do that?

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Ernie Renn · Post by **Ernie Renn** » 5 Mar 2002 2:20 am

I disagree slightly with Lloyd. I believe tone is subjective. To each and everyone's ears. No two people hear it exactly the same way. If they did we'd all sound exactly the same. (Which obviously we don't.)

To me, (and my ears,) there is no other tone like Buddy Emmons playing on an Emmons guitar, (a push-pull or a LeGrande III.) To me that is the tone I'd like to hear coming out of my amplifier.

On the other side of the tone coin, I don't really care for Red Rhodes or Sneaky Pete's tone. I'm not saying it's bad, (they've played some fantastic stuff,) I'm saying for me it's not as pleasing to the ear.

Proper technique (according to who? Jeff Newman? Joe Wright?) can be taught, but proper technique isn't all there is to having a good tone. It surely helps, but isn't the end all. Once again, not everybody has the same technique. Good thing or we'd all sound like each other and have nothing to work for or talk about here...

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My best,
Ernie

The Official Buddy Emmons Website
www.buddyemmons.com[This message was edited by Ernie Renn on 05 March 2002 at 02:25 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 5 Mar 2002 4:50 am

Ok I'll chime in...

Tone: Webster says:
"Accent or inflection expressive of emotion"

Tone in my weak opinion, starts in the head..goes all the way down your neck to your chest into your heart then back up to your arms and then down to your hands and is transfered to the Instrument then on out to the amp where it is heard by your ears and transferred back to your heart and soul where the cycle is either accepted or rejected!

Of course you need a quality Instrument to make the transfer but if the tone doesn't start upstairs there ain't gonna be no transfer !

The Instrument ( thats why it's called Instrument) is just a tool to get your tone, feeling, music expression etc..into a venue that can be heard by the minions.

The Steel is no different than any other Instrument in this equation other than the player needs to be much more disciplined in the transfer technique, hence bar and picks.

There I said it..what did I say,

Loyd ( and others of course )is living proof of knowing what tone he wants and transfering it to his Instrument.

Did you ever hear someone sing who really couldn't sing on pitch and didn't know it but thought they were singing well and on pitch ?

Don't do that on Steel..

TP

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 5 Mar 2002 5:17 am

.......(tone)is it like listening to James Earl Jones and Junior Samples recite the Gettysburg Address? Same words, but........

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 5 Mar 2002 5:31 am

Can you get good tone on a 2 x 4 with 10 small pieces of barbed wire and a 15 watt amp and a 2,000 ohm pickup?

If your answer is no then Bobbe's comments have merit becaue you need to start with equipment capable of giving you better tone.

If your anser is yes then you must think that 90% of tone comes from the hands and only 10% from the equipment.

What has been missed, in part here, is a player who plays with expression, emotion no mather the thickness of their sound. Day did and his tone was thin. Sneaky Pete does and Red did and they had rather thin tone, but look at the ideas, emotion etc.

Play 6 different records by Buddy, the tone is different on every one, but the expression, emotion etc is the same. That is what I gravitate to.

Just a few more ramblins
Larry Behm

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 5 Mar 2002 5:50 am

I believe that tone should vary according to what song or type of music you're playing. Take Ralph Mooney's tone! For the old Buck, Merle, or Waylon stuff it was the cream of the crop. Then in Jazz I always though that Chalker's had a little too much bottom for me but I enjoyed it because it worked for the style of music he was into. I try to change my tone to whatever I think sounds best with the song, sort of like what a guitar player would do when using his toggle switch to change pickups. In closing there are all kinds of tone and I like a whole lot of them. I prefer the west coast stuff but that's the old home front and what I learned first.

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney tuning.

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 5 Mar 2002 6:02 am

Tone is something you will know when you hear it. The Trick is learning how to play with it.

ah the masters touch LDG.

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 5 Mar 2002 6:18 am

From Lloyd Green:

I spent several hours last night thinking about what I consider good tone and how best to articulate those thoughts. Then I contacted a friend whose judgment I value highly. Then I read all the comments that had subsequently followed my statement to Bobbe Seymour. My goal was to define good tone in a manner that everyone could accept. After more consideration I have to admit that there is no single definitive description of good tone but rather, many shades of perception, and these perceptions are as arguable and debatable as politics and religion.

My professional experiences with people who weren’t fans of our instrument, but who liked my sound and playing always told me I didn’t sound whiney, high-pitched and nasally. This was their preconceived bias toward the steel guitar and they had a consistency of using these same terms. So I suppose what they were referring to is the fact that I play with a somewhat mellow tone, in the mid-range of the strings and with a melodic pattern.

Beyond this simple paradigm I am unable to provide any more insight into the nature of tone than some of the really interesting thoughts I’ve read on this thread today. In truth and honesty I can only state what I like as good tone and in that sense, as much as I dislike the word, I guess it is subjective.

This then takes us back to where we started, with many impressions but as always with no absolute conclusions. Because we are all different human beings with diverse backgrounds, experiences and environments, it’s inevitable that “tone” will have different connotations to each individual. Ultimately, we only know what we like. Even the top professionals will not agree on whose tone is the best, but that among the top players a wide diversity is acceptable and indeed desirable. Different tone is part of the personality that separates individual players and this is a good thing.

In the final analysis, tone is that elusive element we all strive for, the full expression of our personality. The perception is in the ears of the listener.

Lloyd Green

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 Mar 2002 7:23 am

From being a staff writer for Steel Guitar World for many years I got a chance to listen and talk to many players about achieving their tone. It seems to be a combination of the players touch, the particular guitar, and the amp and settings. Even wires and volume pedals make a difference. Strings too. I would say touch being most important. Bobbe Seymour educated me the most on guitars. He is the reason I play the particular Sho-Bud that I do. Tommy White is the reason I play a Webb. I've seen him live. Some guitars are built to have good tone. Some are built to be light and look good but don't have good tone. I really agree with Bobbe that alot of guitar builders either don't understand how to build tone into a guitar or don't care for the sake of profit. I think that Ron Lashley and Buddy Emmons broke a mold with the push-pull. Shot Jackson understood this concept also.
Donny, I would love to discuss what guitars have good tone and what don't. I'm just afraid of the resulting lawsuits and allegations. Its the "T" word you know...[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 March 2002 at 07:29 AM.][This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 05 March 2002 at 07:32 AM.]

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 5 Mar 2002 9:08 am

I am here to tell the "world of steel guitar" that I (myself) am the world's foremost connoisseur of steel guitar tone. There are many flavors; but the top four (4) are:

Buddy Emmons- p/p Emmons
Lloyd Green-Sho-Bud
Johnny Sibert-Fender
Jerry Byrd-Rickenbacker

As for my own tone: I, like Jerry Byrd have aquired a title: Rick Collins - "Disaster of Touch and Tone"

Rick

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Mar 2002 9:25 am

I appreciate all the comments...especially those of Ernie, Lloyd, Bobbe, and Kevin. I guess I just tend to be more critical in this area (where it comes to descriptions). To me, there are 3 contributing qualities that describe a player's sound.

First is "tone". This is (as a couple hundred amplifier makers have helped verify) basically the amount of bass, middle, or treble that a sound has (that's why they call them "tone controls").

Second is the "timbre", or musical quality bestowed by overtones. It's the overtones that make a sax sound different than an oboe, and that make a Sho~Bud sound different than an Emmons. This overtone structure is a quality of the instrument itself, and can't be changed much after the thing's built.

The third characteristic of a players "sound" is the "technique", or "style" as some people call it. This is ability, bar placement (intonation), vibrato, volume pedal control, note choice, and picking technique. These specific characteristics carry over to just about any guitar or amp a player uses. That's why Buddy always sounds like Buddy, and Lloyd always sounds like Lloyd, etc..

We really get caught up in this "tone" thing, and I chose these 3 sound qualities (tone, timbre, and technique) to help me decide exactly what is coming into play when I listen to a steelplayer. As to the purpose of this discourse, I'm just trying to prevent the novice from thinking that "If I use his equipment or settings, I'll get his sound."

It actually goes much farther than what you're using, and you need only to listen to a "master" when he uses different guitars, pickups, pedals, and amps to realize that the most important factor is between the seat and the steel!

Rant complete. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 05 March 2002 at 09:25 AM.]

John Robel · Post by **John Robel** » 5 Mar 2002 10:09 am

Great tone can be defined in two words "Soulful Steel".

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 5 Mar 2002 10:29 am

I agree with you Donny. It really comes down to the player to a great extent although I believe equipment is 30 % or more. I was embarrased into this when I was younger by my bluegrass fiddle teacher. He took my student fiddle out of my hands and whipped off "Uncle Pen" in front of me. Then handed me the fiddle back and said "sounds good to me". The ole light bulb went on at that point.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 5 Mar 2002 3:16 pm

It almost seemed in his second statement that Mr. Green had disavowed his original opinion, admitting that since people like many different things, and this being a desireable state of affairs, that tone is in fact entirely "subjective." If I may share my own experience of these two quotes, consider first the statement that Mr. Green ends with:

In the final analysis, tone is that elusive element we all strive for, the full expression of our personality. The perception is in the ears of the listener.

I see nothing in that statement that contradicts his original comment, in that both focus on something that really has little to do with the sound of different guitars, styles of music, etc. Sure, we all like different things, and can even have the interesting experience of having our likes and dislikes drastically altered. It seems to me that in the way Mr. Green chooses to define the most important aspect of tone, in both quotes, he may be pointing toward something that is more or less beyond all the varying forms which may come to express it. I think the second quote expands on the first, rather than contradicts it. I realize I'm biting off a huge chunk, presuming to interpret what Mr. Green has very generously offered us, so please forgive me any distortions of his thought.

I have to say one thing that occurs to me when this type of discussion comes up. Some assume that just because our perceptions of things appear to be inside ourselves, that this disqualifies the possibility of any "universals" of value that we all share. I'll just say that if the answer to this question is so obvious,then the highly intelligent and gifted people that have given us our traditions of philosophy have been wasting their time debating this question of "universals" since the time of Plato. Maybe our experience isn't based on a reality that is as shallow and obvious as we often think it is.

B Bailey Brown · Post by **B Bailey Brown** » 5 Mar 2002 3:20 pm

WOW!! What an interesting thread! Many things to be learned here.

When I first read Mr. Green’s statement I thought, “Well, I agree, and respectfully disagree”. GREAT tone is in the ears of both the player, and the listener. For example, if I were playing one night and I thought my tone was outstanding; another player might come along and think, “Gee B., your tone really sucks tonight!” Who is right? Well, neither, and both!

MY tone was great because it was what I wanted to hear from my equipment, my hands and my brain that night. It probably “sucked” to the other player because it was not what he thought “tone” should be. Therefore, it is in fact somewhat “subjective”. I think he pointed that out in a later post! Good for him.

I will totally agree with Lloyd Green when he says, “Tone requires intelligence, thoughtfulness and maturity.” Truer words have probably never been spoken.

Bobby Lee asked the question, “Can anybody really DEFINE tone?” The answer is, sure! But only one person, and that person is yourself…and you can only define it FOR yourself. “Tone” to your ears is probably something different than what MY ears will hear.

I would respectfully submit, that we should all find a guitar that feels right under our hands (who cares what brand?!), develop our technique, and remember as Lloyd Green said, “Tone requires intelligence, thoughtfulness and maturity.” Unfortunately, this does not come overnight, as it requires many years of practice, tweaking of this that and the other, etc. Get a good amp (Again, who cares what brand?!), and some effects that you can learn how to use…then mess with them for a while. If you chose not to use “effects”, that is fine as well because it will still become part of YOUR tone. At some point in time you will have GREAT tone!

Of course, some other player may come along some night and say, “ Gee B., your tone really sucked tonight…BUT it wasn’t your equipment! (By the way, that was an old Jerry Blanton line but I have always loved it)

B. Bailey Brown

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 5 Mar 2002 5:22 pm

Oh Yeah!!! Well...ask Bobbe if he got any tone last night after he signed off!!!