What "IF" MSA............

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 11 Jan 2002 7:13 am

Many of you know MSA ceased production in 1983. Over the past 18 years I have been asked many times what I believed the design features would be today, were MSA to have continued.

Although doing so would of course be speculation both from you and I, it could be fun and interesting were you to offer your opinion of what "might have been" had MSA continued.

It would also be interesting to post comments concerning the steel guitar of your dreams and the future, while considering the availability of space age technology, new composite materials and production techniques that are now a reality in the 21st century.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 11 Jan 2002 8:05 am

Reece- In 1968 I built the first "Pedesonic" "Fiberglass" Steel.All machined parts and no castings,Metalflake finish and many other features that to this day are not being used. Guess what- It didn't sell. After all these years of I still get calls for those old "Miller" Marlin" "Fender 400" etcparts. People keep steels forever. There needs to be more openmindess about Steels and the industry. If everyone would concentrate on"Promoting Steel Guitar" more people would want to be players.After we have created a "Buyer" market then then we can concentrate on "Bells and Whistles" of the instrument. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 11 Jan 2002 8:16 am

Reese, has the worm gear and pinion idea ever crossed your mind for a totally new concept in a changer system? It has mind many times thru the years. No need to spring load anything. Thats my thought for the day. While the guitars of today are great I think modern technology is not being used because it is not demanded nor desired I guess. Not to say worm gear and pinion is a modern idea, it is of course very old in the automobile, fishing tackle, and about any other mechanical thing you can think of.
Jerry

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 11 Jan 2002 8:39 am

Ed....I have never heard of a fibreglas steel, and admitedly my knowledge is limited concerning the strength or application capabilities of that material. Possibly you would care to enlighten me on what you considered to be the "strengths" of fibreglas, when integrated into a pedal steel guitar!

I also can appreciate your comment, that it appears, no matter what is available today in a pedal steel guitar, many still prefer the older steels.

My question concerning that would be; "is your statement a result of the "bar" not being high enough between what is available in a new steel guitar today, as opposed to what may be found in a used guitar?"

Jerry....While I understand the basic principals of worm gear and pinion, I would be interested in understanding the applied application which would eliminate spring load.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Jan 2002 8:57 am

That's a good idea, Jerry. The only flaw is how to compensate for wear without using split gears with springs, or some other pre-loading mechanism. We need precision that goes beyond fishing reels and steering mechanisms. Actually, you could still do a "springless" changer with just levers. But then again, getting the string to return exactly, while using only the string's own tension would still be difficult.

Had MSA solved their "weight problem", and eased the manner in which the guitar's pedals could be set up, it might still be around. There were a lot of good ideas in that ax, and today's design technology, assisted by electronics, could have made it sound (dare I say?) exactly like an Emmons, or any other guitar, for that matter.

For the sound to be there, you'd only have to use digital audio spectrum analysis, and then physically modify accordingly, to obtain the desired sound.

But, (and here is the caveat) you'd still have to physically standardize the guitar (strings, tunings, and pedals) to ever hope for widespread appeal...unless you could make the thing "programmable", and make changes with just the push of a few buttons.

frank rogers · Post by **frank rogers** » 11 Jan 2002 9:10 am

Reece, as a former M.S.A. dealer and as a HUGE fan of your playing, let me say that it is indeed a pleasure to be asked our collective and individual opinions by you. Something I would like to see in the future is some sort of steel with pedals that would allow the player onstage mobility. I don't personally believe that steel guitar will gain huge acceptance unless the player is more able to connect with the audience in a more charismatic way. I would like to hear your ideas and those of others on how this might be accomplished. F.R.

Ed Naylor · Post by **Ed Naylor** » 11 Jan 2002 9:25 am

Reece-If you will E-mail your phone # I will call you with info. Ed

Rick Collins · Post by **Rick Collins** » 11 Jan 2002 10:01 am

I've always liked the keyhead design of the MSA;___also the high necks and the way the strings sit up high from the fretboards. I wouldn't change that much, except to incorporate into the keyhead a way for the center strings to run under a holddown clip from the nut to the key post (much like the Fender electric guitars have for the first two fine strings). I still like the conventional keyhead better than the keyless.

I believe a lot of the hardware can be eliminated on the underside of the guitar with a cable system of better design than that of the Fenders. I know a lot of players are really against cables, but Fender used automotive emergency brake cables;___aircraft cables of a smaller diameter are even stronger and don't change with the temp. as much as automotive. The aircraft industry runs cables 20 to 30 feet and more with precision movement.

The steel guitar is a manual instrument, so I wouldn't use any electronics on the guitar, except for the pickups and switching system,___volume pedal, etc. Make the height of the pickups adjustable using no tools; make the pickups adjustable by distance from the bridge using no tools.

Important to me would be a way to make all tuning and pedal travel adjustments from a sitting/playing position, using no tools.

Cosmetically, make the top of the guitar a neutral color and make the front panel of the cabinet "quick changable" with a selection of various colors of Formica that the player might select, even at the last minute before playing a gig. This can be done from the inside of the guitar with thumbscrews on clips to hold then in place.

Do all this and plan on marketing the guitar for $49.95,___just kidding;___no I'm not.

Rick

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 11 Jan 2002 11:05 am

I'd say incorporate the pluses in other guitars into one guitar. There have been advances over the years and then there are still designs or design ideas that the MSA had that are still being used.

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 11 Jan 2002 11:09 am

Reece, I really don't think there would have been much change from the Classic SS models you built there toward the end. I have one, as well as some more modern steels, and the SS ranks right up there with any of them. The action is great, the precision is unmatched (as a Mechanical Engineer, I really appreciate this), and it looks great. It is compact, although a little heavier than some of the newer ones. The only improvement I can think of would be a different method of attaching the bellcranks to the shafts that would make them easier to change around, but once the guitar is set up, that is not a problem either. It just requires a little more pre-planning.

You and your staff done good.

Here's my Baby, thanks again Herb Steiner.

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Darvin Willhoite
Riva Ridge Recording

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 11 Jan 2002 11:35 am

After hearing on today's news about the gas powered engine that may soon give way to a bunch of "cells" powered by hydro something or other, that there is inovation/technogly yet to instill itself on the evolution of the steel guitar. Bell cranks and pull rods may soon be obsolete just like the gas guzzling V8, V6,V4 or whatever else makes your four wheels go.
Gary Lee

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 11 Jan 2002 12:29 pm

I would have liked to have seen a keyless MSA - perhaps with a wrenchless style head like the current Sierras and GFIs.I too,feel that the last batch of guitars made by MSA are still competetive with the latest things being made - square cross shafts and other advances notwithstanding.I must say that I played a 1980 cherry red D-10SS w/8+8 for 13 years and it served me REAL well.I changed the pickups a couple times and finally ended up w/E-66s in there and the guitar sounded great to me.I only went to a Sierra when I decided to go universal and wanted a new guitar.As far as all this talk about servos,hydrolics and other futuristic speculation,I don't think it'll ever happen.The pedal steel is by nature a mechanical device.There's still plenty of room for better and better mechanical linkages and clever changers,etc.Just take a look at the sublime undercarrige of an Anapeg guitar which looks like it was crafted by a NASA engineer whos hobby is making surgical tools.Steel amps however,may evolve to the point that you could call up the sound of a Sho-Bud,Stringmaster or whatever thru digital sound modeling.That technology is already here but excepy for a few presets on a Profex,hasn't been exploited. -MJ-

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 11 Jan 2002 12:36 pm

Donnie Hinson....I appreciate you and everyone else for taking the time to join this conversation.

I have addressed one of your comments many times concerning the weight of the MSA. Were the weight of MSA to be compared with other guitars of the same period, while assembled and NOT IN THE CASE, you would find the weight of MSA to be little if any, more than most other guitars of that day and time. In some instances the MSA guitars were a few pounds heavier, however, the MSA utilized an integrated aluminum underside perimeter most others did not use, which contributed greatly to the dependability and longevity of MSA guitars. In the opinion of
MSA, a few extra pounds was worth what history has proven, in that MSA achieved both reliability and consistency.

You further commented that had MSA solved the weight issue and eased the manner in which MSA could be setup, that "MSA might still be around". At that period of time
the method we used for the required setup was not an issue to my knowledge.

For the record, I can tell you without any hesitancy, weight and our method of attaching pull rods, had nothing to do with MSA stopping production.

Sound is "the opinion of the listener" and a subject which has been discussed many times. I am however very interested in your suggestion of "digital audio spectrum analysis" and a procedure by which you feel this could be accomplished? Is it your opinion any player could sound like any other player were this to be accomplished, and if so, how could this matter be approached?

I also like your idea about a programmable setup. Would you care to share how you would propose this be accomplished?

Frank Rogers....Thank you so much for the kind words and for selling MSA guitars in the past.

I don't know how on stage mobility could be accomplished when using pedals and knee levers, other than for the entire guitar to be on a moveable platform. I would think many would make a comparison with steel guitar relative to pianos and drums, which are also not moveable, yet are an accepted and integral part of a band.

Ed Naylor....I will contact you by email as you suggested.

Rick Collins....I appreciate your positive comments about the MSA of the past.

What would be your reasoning for wanting the middle strings to run under a "hold down clip" from the roller bridge to the tuning key?

It has been my experience that most don't like the pedal and knee lever feel of cables. At the same time I believe you are correct concerning the application possibilities and precison movement capabilities of todays precision cable.

Bobby Bowman · Post by **Bobby Bowman** » 11 Jan 2002 12:50 pm

Reece,
I'll ditto what Darvin said about the Classic SS. IMHO, it was/is one of the best that was ever made,,,,,,any brand!
BB

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If you play 'em, play 'em good!
If you build 'em, build 'em good!

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 11 Jan 2002 1:14 pm

Rick Collins....please forgive my oversight concerning other comments you made.

You have an interesting idea concerning making all tuning and pedal travel adjustments possible from a sitting/playing position, using no tools. Would you have any specific ideas on how this could be achieved?

Your idea of having the ability to change colors of the guitar is also interesting. Your further clearification would be appreciated.

Darvin Willhoite....I think you are correct in that the little SS MSA you now have would have been the size of the MSA double neck were MSA in production.

I also think you are exactly right in that MSA would have designed a different bell crank, perhaps one which would snap on and off.

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Your your little MSA SS still looks great and it has to be almost 20 years old.

Michael Johnstone....I'm reasonably confident that were MSA's being made today, it would still have tuning keys, although we would most certainly have explored the keyless innovation.

I believe you are absolutely right in that MSA would today have square cross rods.

Jack Stoner....Thank you for your comment.

Reece Anderson · Post by **Reece Anderson** » 11 Jan 2002 1:43 pm

Hi Bobby....Great to have you join in, I appreciate your kind words concerning the MSA SS.

We had some great times at MSA in the early years didn't we! You are without a doubt, one of the best salesmen MSA ever had.

For those who are not aware, my dear friend Bobby started MSA's string business, and done a great job. Thanks for the memories!

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 11 Jan 2002 2:12 pm

There isn't a day that I sit down and play my '76 S-10 Classic and don't marvel at the solid construction and consistent performance. When I get up from it, I usually admire the attractive birdsye maple cabinent for a moment or two. The more I learn, the better the guitar sounds.

I guess a couple of questions I have, Reece, have to do with two features that contribute to the guitar's performance. First, I get ridiculously long life on strings. Do you think that this is due to finger radius, and would a smaller radius give more breakage but better sound? Second, about that aluminum perimeter undercarriage- is there a tradeoff between tone and structure with this? As far as the MSA of the future, (besides the aluminum neck like you have being standard

,) would the fingers and aluminum perimeter still be the same? And would the S-10 be smaller like the SS also? My last question is, about the tall necks, would the cabinent drop be less if these were lowered? (Not that I notice any real problem with it now.)

Thanks,

Jeff

Post by **Joey Ace** » 11 Jan 2002 3:05 pm

I used to have an MSA Classic. I now have a Carter. I've always felt that the Carter is what MSA-style evolved into.

I personally like the Aluminum neck and light weight. Of course the bellcrank attachment improvements as mentioned above are necessary. I like the modular pickup (easy change) of the Sierras. Also, it would be nice to not need a wrench for tuning.

I would not like a hi-tech changer. The mechnical rods and pedals are part of the instrument's charm.

Just my 2 cents (Canadian).

Marty Holmes · Post by **Marty Holmes** » 11 Jan 2002 6:00 pm

Reece,
IMHO I have seen more M.S.A's than any other guitar in Texas.When I first moved to Magnolia that was the only guitar I really ever saw(Expecting to see Sho-Bud's,and Emmon's).Everyone I met,or ran into was playing them.Finally a friend of mine told me "just get a damn M.S.A ,and be done with it.It is still to this day the most comfortable guitar I have ever sat behind,and I would not change a thing about it.
M.S.A vintage XL SS II S12 4+5

Jim Leonard · Post by **Jim Leonard** » 11 Jan 2002 7:13 pm

If the MSA SS were built today with metal necks and a quick change undercarriage I feel it would probably out sell any thing on the market today with a sales staff like MSA had at one time.

Post by **b0b** » 11 Jan 2002 8:09 pm

Since this is about Pedal Steel, not about Steel Players, I'm moving it to where it belongs.

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