Should I modify this steel (66 P/P)?

Randy Reams · Post by **Randy Reams** » 30 Oct 2001 6:39 am

I recently bought a near mint 1966 Black Mica Emmons P/P bolt on.
It came from the factory w/ 8 pedals and 0 knee levers.
I have inquired about having knee levers put on this giutar and have had mixed responses.
Some say "do it" because it is worthless (as a player) with no knee levers.
Some say if I put the knee levers on it will then be worth much less.
I am a 2 year student of the steel guitar.
I do not want to do anything stupid but I need something to play/learn on.
Should I trade it?
Should I keep it in the safe for another 35 years?
Should I have the knee levers put on and play it? Please HELP!
Thanks, Randy Reams

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 30 Oct 2001 7:03 am

If you sell it to me, I'll put the knee levers on it and play it.

Steve Matlock · Post by **Steve Matlock** » 30 Oct 2001 7:41 am

How did you come across such a rare guitar? I would say that if you could add the levers in the same way they would have been originally been done at the factory then it would be worth doing. Your guitar would be functional to play and would still be an "original" Emmons set up.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Oct 2001 7:44 am

Speaking from the point of view of a collector of such guitars, I feel that the attitude of "totally, completely original" that exists in the vintage instrument market does not apply to the steel guitar world right now. These guitars are valued by steel players for their sound and playability more than their "total originality." So I would tell you to add 4 knee levers and play the thing.

But I would also tell you to find levers as CLOSE TO ORIGINAL as possible, if stock Emmons push-pull parts are not available. Then, have them installed by one of the guys well known for Emmons restoration.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Randy Reams · Post by **Randy Reams** » 30 Oct 2001 8:10 am

Steve, I ran an add on the local cable station
WANTED: Double Neck Pedal Steel Guitar.
I only received one call and it was this guitar.
I never dreamed I would end up with this.
I just wanted a D-10 instead of my S-10 Cougar.
After talking to the gentleman, I found out he bought it used from my dad, (Nelson Reams)in 1968. How cool is that?!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 30 Oct 2001 9:14 am

Unless the steel can be traced to a famous player, it's collector value will be forever limited by the majority of similar steels out there. If the mods are done properly, and with original Emmons parts...who would ever know it had been modded in the first place? I doubt accurate records will be available in the future with all the changes the Emmons Co. is going through. Forget "getting rich" off of it, and enjoy the thing!

It will be a long, long, time before an instrument like this instrument will be in the 5-figure bracket (if ever). And that is when I would worry about "collector value" (Probably another 25-50 years?)

Mike Weirauch · Post by **Mike Weirauch** » 30 Oct 2001 9:52 am

Herb, didn't the Emmons Co. use polished knee levers up to 1970 or somewhere there about? If so, he would want to stay within the realm of authenticity.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 30 Oct 2001 12:24 pm

Listen to Herb, he knows what he's talking about.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 30 Oct 2001 1:53 pm

Listen to Herb, he knows what he's talking about.

Chas, I'm glad you finally have seen the clear light of truth.

There's still room in my cave for you, though.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Tele · Post by **Tele** » 30 Oct 2001 3:27 pm

Randy,

congrats on that one !! I'd send it right away to Mike Cass, he's the da man when it comes to p/p Emmons, at least that's what I think.
I bought a D-10 from him this year, 8+5 and it's hard to imagine it might have been better when it left the factory in 69.

You could find his email address on Herb Steiners' site..just click on the links.

Andy

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1962 Sho~Bud D-10 : 1969 Emmons D-10 : Bigsby T-8: 1954 Gretsch DuoJet: 1955 Gretsch DuoJet:1957 Standel 25L15
about me
My steels

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 30 Oct 2001 3:56 pm

Herb, I never doubted you for a moment and the cave sounds pretty good, you won't mind if I bring along my squalor.

Dyke Corson · Post by **Dyke Corson** » 30 Oct 2001 4:06 pm

I found a mint 1967 D-10 Emmons with no knees a couple of years ago. The guy ordered the guitar from a small music store, he was a non-pedal player...I think knees were optional at the time. He bought this guitar and could not do much with it, went back to his non-pedal and put this one in the closet.

I bought it from him and sent it directly to Mike Cass to have 4 knees put on. I own several PPs that came with knees from the factory, and I can't tell the difference between them and the ones Mike put on. He's your man, go for it.

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 30 Oct 2001 6:44 pm

You are right WC. Brian built my new '81 push pull and it was a great guitar. He also sent me a cassette of his concert playing with Ava Barber on one side of the cassette and the other was instrumentals Brian had recorded in a studio. Brian is a great player as well as builder, technician. I have his phone number at my office. Brian's name is going on the list of less known great players that is currently on the Forum. Thanks for reminding me of him. The guitar he built for me was tremendous and he is a wonderful player.
Jerry Roller

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 1 Nov 2001 3:14 am

I think I just took one across the bow!!!.......I really resent thinly vieled insinuations.....if you ave somethin to say, say it...or mind yer own business.
Brian is a fine repairman & we see things along the same lines.You cant go wrong with either one of us. Im really tired of seeing one fellows work(regardless of who) recommended by several & then along comes the "dissenting" opinion......W.C., i did some work for you thru Duane Marrs' shop when you passed thru here some years ago.
I seem to remember you telling me how great the horn was, etc etc. I also remember it taking some time for me to get all my $.My customers usually pay in advance....im not a bank.
If you want a museum piece Randy, leave it alone....if you want a horn to play, add the knees....whether I do it or, another....make sure the parts are as near original as possible & have the correct leverages. I cant count the number of times Ive seen a nice old P/P with a "homemade" knee system....someone trying to build a better mousetrap

that kind of stuff is still somewhat common due to the unavailability of the original parts.
That is why I strive to have the originals re-created.
Good luck

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 1 Nov 2001 8:09 pm

How about you modify it to my house?

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 2 Nov 2001 8:27 am

Just play it good![This message was edited by John Sims on 02 November 2001 at 08:48 AM.]

Jerry Roller · Post by **Jerry Roller** » 2 Nov 2001 8:42 am

Very neat, John!!!

John Sims · Post by **John Sims** » 2 Nov 2001 8:50 am

Thanks Jerry...

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 2 Nov 2001 10:36 am

It appears as if I have to teach a little "Business Ethics 101" here....
Look, If there was a thread about, lets say, Steel cases for example & others had voiced certain opinions about another case manufacturer, based on THEIR OWN personal experiences, to the positive & then I jumped in all like:" hey, I know THE real case guy...."
that would likely cause the same reaction I had...
Brian & I are REAL GOOD friends....we often send work each others way...I respect him & he respects me...
We often get a laugh out of the "posturing" on the forum with regards to repair, set up & the "Faves" etc

Guys reccomend any workman(or not) based on THEIR dealings with said repair guy. I didnt see any firsthand knowledge of Mr Adams work...only that hes THE guy....
Well, BOTH of us are THE guy LOL

If I had to send my horn to anyone else,it would be him...dont know how he feels in reciprication tho ..

Maybe I come off as sensitive to remarks(direct or otherwise) about my work...but I take alot of pride in what I do.
I strive to keep you guys happy & that often means going out of my way, often at MY time & expense.
To have repeatedly done that, recieved the praise for my work that I have & then get a sniper now & then is a little disheartening.
THE reason these guys recommend anyone is that THEY know fisrthand what has transpired.
I did your guitar too W.C....your email to me said you were very satisfied...but yer post says none of that...think about it....
& dont DUH me pal, if I recall correctly, you WERE in & out of here....one week you were in a club,next week your callin someone from , Kansas is it??? either youre here or youre not.... ???
As far as my having some ?Nashville Attitude".....If I have one I guess its because I came here, toughed it out & stayed... not an excuse, but perhaps a cause.....but I dont lend much creednce to the charge

My God, with the likes of the players residing in this town, Buddy, Tommy, Lloyd, Paul, Weldon, Hal etc....how cold anyone cop a "Nashville Attitude"....perhaps that "Attitude" is really a striving for excellence, which, by the way, is the only thing that will keep you here.....
Lotta folks come here.... very few can stay

As far as attacking YOUR business WC, I DID NOT mention cases, whos the best, etc ...as you did.
MC

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 02 November 2001 at 10:40 AM.]

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 2 Nov 2001 3:54 pm

Mike,
If I needed some work done I'd take my horn to you. We've been pals a long time. Let's go down on Broadway again some night.

WC,
Always liked picking with you, you're a good guy to be on stage with. I'll never forget the Kansas State Fair. <YIKES>

So... quit bitching at each other already.

C#

Dwayne Waller · Post by **Dwayne Waller** » 2 Nov 2001 9:02 pm

Hey, I have known WC Edgar for 20 some years and have always known him to be a Great picker and one of the most honest people to deal with in this business. Builds great cases, and is an all round good guy who will do what he says. I just hate to see a friend get bashed like this for no apparent reason, And I think this was all uncalled for.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 3 Nov 2001 12:28 am

I know Mike, for a while.. and I've met W.C. in Texas.

But I haven't met Cal Sharp... although right now, he's talking alot of sense

-John