Strangest session I ever played

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 16 Oct 2001 1:23 pm

I just returned from a German studio, in a big villa, all luxuary, nice food, good Jaquzi,good sound and engineers,where I recorded for a well-known German singer, (I don't give names yet, but no, it's not Heino!

)
I work a lot on pro-tools recordings, but this was the weirdest thing I ever did.
I got paid by the hour, so that was OK, but:
I had to play a lot of perfect tracks for every song I did. I recorded six songs.
They didn't want to decide now what to use or to delete , but they wanted every possibility in the mix with licks, runs, turnarounds etc.
So I played my ass off and did the job. I started at 11.30 in the morning and the sessoins went on yesterday, with a short break, till 2.00 hrs in the night. This morning it started at 11.00 and went on till 7.00 in the night. I played myself complete empty, I can't get it good in memory what I played, and what they will use on the final mix.
Was a good practise in being creative on every inch, for periods for a lot of hours, in a million

tracks, with some overdubs, and sharpened my mind, but this has nothing to do with arranging music to me.
But I had and have good feelings about what I have done and what they will use. I liked the songs and sounds in the studio.
Maybe this way of recording will be a new approach for having a way to make "perfect" recordings, I would like to hear sometimes from Paul or Bruce how they did the job for Shania Twain , with Mutt Lange. To me this producer is a perfectionist, and he knows his way a round in good use of these tools, I'm told.
(edited for spelling and after a night with dreaming about steelbars thrown trough the bedroom

)
JJ[This message was edited by Johan Jansen on 17 October 2001 at 01:02 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 16 Oct 2001 1:56 pm

Well Johan, I certainly understand that you were "drained", or maybe "played out"...to put it another way. I've never had anything quite like that, but I have had the other end of the spectrum.

I was called one day to do a steel overdub on a song, and went in thinking it might take an hour or so (since I don't read or do charts). Well, the engineer had it playing as I was setting up, and after I did a little touch-up tuning, he suggested I run through it once..."just for practice". Well, when the song was over, he said "That was perfect!!!" I told him I didn't even know he was recording, and was willing to try to do it again to try to improve what I'd done. But, he was emphatic..."That's exactly what I wanted, so you're finished." The producer agreed, and I walked out with my money...and the "honorary" nickname...one-take Donny. I almost felt guilty taking the money, but they were all happy. So, after some soul-searching, I just considered it a job well done.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Oct 2001 2:58 pm

Hi Johan!
I do some steel work for a guy who records on a Mac with Pro Tools.
I do about 5 takes on each steel section, with him coaching me to get what he wants.
He lets me know when he has what he wants and we move on.
When I get the CD he has taken all the best stuff and used it wherever he wants it.

Sounds like either your producer had no idea what he wanted from the steel (hence all the playing), or, he never wants to actually use a steel player again so he has collected all the samples he'll ever need

.

Personnally, I like the cut and paste thing in situations where I've never heard the song before. You play along a few times and they use what they like wherever they want it.
It's their vision of the song.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Oct 2001 3:27 pm

he suggested I run through it once..."just for practice". Well, when the song was over, he said "That was perfect!!!" I told him I didn't even know he was recording

Oldest trick in the book. They all do that to me! I should expect it by now, but they still fool me every time. They always want the freshest cut; they figure that, after that, it becomes too "deliberate" and may go downhill.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 16 Oct 2001 5:47 pm

Dey gonna fixit in da mix. I see this a lot, the most difficult part is being "on" for so long and after an extended period of time I have almost no idea of what I've played, which may be the point. I understand that you would think that this has nothing to do with music, but it does, it's just a different approach.

I work for a composer who prefers it when the players are not 'thinking about what they are playing' ie not playing, so much, what they know, like licks and 'standard fare'. I had a time where the track was playing in the backround for another player and I was talking to someone and just unconciously noodling on the strings at the same time, it got recorded and became part of the Title track, I ended up getting a writers credit and on my most recent BMI Royalty check, I got a whopping $2.42. So there you have it, you too can get rich by being unconcious.[This message was edited by chas smith on 17 October 2001 at 10:29 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 16 Oct 2001 5:58 pm

Macy told me about the session with the ProTools producer:

After the first take, he gets on the talkback and says "Okay, guys. That sucked. Come on in, I think we got it."

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Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Oct 2001 7:05 pm

I did a ProTools session recently where there was one really hard figure they wanted me to play in 6 places in the song. They said I only had to play it right once, and they would paste it into the other spots.

Somehow I'm not sure I'll like the end result.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
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Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 16 Oct 2001 8:24 pm

Jim Cohen- yes, you been there. They always figure the first track is your best one.
I used to be that way, my first track was always my best as far as feeling,etc ., after a few more, the spontaniety is gone......al

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 16 Oct 2001 8:47 pm

Well also those first two takes are when I'm paying attention the most, the down side is I'm playing the worst.

Somehow I'm not sure I'll like the end result.

Bobby, the only person who's gonna know is you, everyone else will marvel at your technique. I had one where I had to sight read a score, not one of my better skills. We ended up doing one or two measures at a time and after it was cut together I sounded like I was ready for the Hall of Fame.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 17 Oct 2001 2:23 am

That's why it's so hard to believe what is actually heard on a recording on the radio, with ProTools it can be manipulating like crazy. I also did one of those perfectionist sessions a few years back and it was just exhausting. Although the producer understood country music and the steel, whatever I played was never good enough and I had to keep coming up with stuff. I was beat after about 10 hours in the studio. The end result was OK, but probably something I could have played in the first couple of takes.

erik · Post by **erik** » 17 Oct 2001 2:31 am

Sounds like a samplist's approach. Grab a lick off a sample CD, make a song.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 17 Oct 2001 3:46 am

I used to do some sessions for Charlie Kellogg's "Big K" studio in Kansas City. He would call me many times to just add steel to already recorded material. He would tell me I'll play the track and you can play around with it to get a feel for it. I would be playing along or trying different licks and all of a sudden he would run out of the studio with his arms waving in the air yelling "that's what I want", but I'd have no idea which lick he wanted.

Another strange session I did was a previously recorded session he had done with Jack Hensley on steel and his son Danny on lead guitar. He decided he wanted a different style on the steel and he called me. We redid the session and sitting next to me was Danny Hensley and I was there redoing his father's steel part - very strange feeling.

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 17 Oct 2001 6:49 am

I sometimes wonder how much--if any--cutting, pasting, relocating, deleting, trimming, etc. is done with the tracks of Nashville A-team players. Do these guys just track it right pretty much the first time or does the producer manipulate what they've recorded?

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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?
[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 17 October 2001 at 07:50 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 17 Oct 2001 7:33 am

As an avid flyfisherman, I know well the importance of the "first cast".
My main group The Countrypolitans just recorded 11 songs for a new CD (24 track 2" tape). I knew every song very well and was raring to go.
My main sessions were on Sept 12-14. I was railing emotionally from the Sept 11th disaster. We caught alot of good stuff on first takes. Of course there were also a few that the producer wanted to do over, against my better judgement, and I could feel first hand the dissapointment, after several takes, of finding out the the first track, the one with all the spontainious emotion, got erased.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 17 Oct 2001 7:54 am

Welcome to the world as we now know it. Apart from over zealous producers that sometimes drain the creative life out of any player, the era of digital recording and editing has taken over big time. Although I have preferred analog recording for years, I too had to step into reality and get on board with a DAW.

That having been said, the concept of picking and choosing licks and sections and then moving them around, twisting and turning them inside out is a cool set of tools. As far as what the A Team does, nobody is immune to editing after the fact. It's still at the discretion of the producer though. A player still has to actually "play" the chops...no way around it.

I've found that producers whose backgrounds are not country tend to want to experiment more with steel. They are impressed sometimes with things we might consider goofy while others will force you to raise the bar (no pun intended) and go outside your normal comfort zone. I did a thing awhile back and the producer wanted about 8 different performances so he could pick and choose for the final. I thought it was overkill as he'd be facing a lot of editing time (and in my opinion was not necessary). Sometimes powerful tools in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing (I'm smiling).

For any steel player to be creative and also play in tune is a very impressive thing to me. If a player is out of tune overall, the tracks' pitch can be raised or lowered, even in sections, but individual notes in a chord cannot be fixed by editing.

I personally think there were no fewer weird sessions during the rein of "old technology", there is just a whole new class of folks involved in production these days and it's a different type of weird. Then again, doesn't it seem that steel players have this reputation as being weird themselves?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 17 Oct 2001 9:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I sometimes wonder how much--if any--cutting, pasting, relocating, deleting, trimming, etc. is done with
the tracks of Nashville A-team players.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I have a friend who is a first call flutist who was on a Barbara Streisand date. He said she had barely finished the take when they were loading it into the editor. His thoughts were,'this is Barbara Streisand not Cher, what are they going to change?'

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 17 Oct 2001 10:01 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I sometimes wonder how much--if any--cutting, pasting, relocating, deleting, trimming, etc. is done with the tracks of Nashville A-team players. Do these guys just track it right pretty much the first time or does the producer manipulate what they've recorded?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I understand and know, the A-team most of the time record in a little amount of time and just need a few takes.
(that's why they are the A team!!)
What a producer later manipulates on the recording is not the players concern, or on their credit. But also here the rule is: good in> good out versus shit in > shit out.
But I never heard shit from the A team, so they do a better job than I ever will be able to

JJ

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STEELDAYS 2002
my web-site
my bands CODand TSC

Len Ryder · Post by **Len Ryder** » 18 Oct 2001 4:31 pm

Many years ago I was on a session where after the first night in the studio the "artist" wasn't happy with what we'd accomplished. Come in to-morrow night he says. Next night he shows up with 5 litres of wine to quote--"loosen up the boys" unquote. After five litres of red wine was downed, and the session was over, he was happy as a pig in mud.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 18 Oct 2001 5:36 pm

I was on one where the cellist was just plain terrible. She excused herself, went to the ladies room for about 25 minutes, and when she got back, she was great. I wanted to ask her if she had any left of whatever it was, and could I have some?

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 19 Oct 2001 5:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As far as I understand and know, the A-team most of the time record in a little amount of time
and just need a few takes.
(that's why they are the A team!!)
What a producer later manipulates on the recording is not the players concern, or on their
credit. But also here the rule is: good in> good out versus shit in > shit out.
But I never heard shit from the A team, so they do a better job than I ever will be able to
JJ<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I've seen the A team in action, and believe me they're good! Two takes and on to the next song, but occaisionally there are "Mop up players" (seen that too!)[This message was edited by Larry Miller on 19 October 2001 at 10:39 AM.]