why would anyone play anything else?

smike · Post by **smike** » 29 Sep 2001 5:40 pm

just got my first universal, after owning several double-10's...

wow!

the ease with which one can go back and forth between tunings (worlds!) is truly phenomenal.

given that the footprint is smaller, the thing is lighter (and more comfortable), strings are cheaper, and you have both tunings at your immediate disposal, why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

go ahead... knock the wind out of my sails!

smike

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 29 Sep 2001 6:03 pm

Welcome to the club! I sometimes laugh out loud when I'm in the middle of a song with my band and I "surprise" myself and find another cool way to flow back and forth between E9/B6 fretboard patterns on my S-12 Sierra.
Joe Wright said it best "it's one big tuning"
JE:-)>

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 29 Sep 2001 6:09 pm

why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

They look cooler.

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 29 Sep 2001 6:47 pm

You can always play the other neck til break time? Not sure that's a valid reason. I
think everyone is stuck with what they started with...Day or Emmons set-ups....S12s
or D10s I've even known people to have their next guitar set up like their last one even when we all know maybe one KL arrangement is better than another? I've always believed in the valid reasons behind the universal set-up. I should have stayed in Dallas long enough to learn the Bb6th from Bud & Maurice!
I love what they do with them S12s! Get one of Maurice's CDs b0b has just rec'd & listen to that! I believe in the S12 theory, but I sure never could play one & I've tried 4 times!

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 29 Sep 2001 9:11 pm

I've been playing D-10's for 25 years or so, but if I were starting out today, I would definately consider a U-12. I just have no interest in changing at this point in time. I am too used to the D-10.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 29 Sep 2001 9:29 pm

why WOULD anyone want to stay with double-10's?

Since you asked,...

1. 80% or more of players play a D-10. With a few notable exceptions, all the icons play the D-10, including Emmons, Chalker, Jernigan, Day, Franklin, Hughey, Rugg, Charleton, White, et. al. Once you get past the icons to the next level of lesser known but monster players, almost all of them play the D-10 as well. So, you would be in the best of company.

2. The D-10 has been the world-wide standard for 40+ years.

3. Virtually all tab is written for the D-10. While it can be translated, that is an additional encumbrance imposed on an already difficult instrument.

4. Just like the U-12, there is unlimited capabilities to play any genre or style of music.

5. When you change a pedal on one neck, it does not impact the other. This is an invaluable feature of the D-10.

6. Some players feel it is very useful to have a backup neck in case you break a string.

7. It looks better.

8. Did I say that with a few exceptions, all the notable players play a D-10. Why would you NOT play the same arrangement as Emmons, Chalker, Jernigan, Hughey, and White?? There is just no contest here.

9. Band-leaders with potential gigs often ask if you play C6. A new gig is tough enough without having to convince people that you can play C6 type stuff on a Universal.

10. A good friend and great player from Texas tells me that of the couple of hundred players he has seen where he lives and plays, only ONE he recalls played a Universal tuning. Even if it was a few, that’s still miniscule. He does acknowledge that many players with D-10 guitars can’t play C6. But they still own the D-10.

11. Even though there is a philosophical advantage to having the two sets of pedal/knee lever pulls from both necks available on one set of strings, in actual practice, it is very hard to play the C6 neck in the same contexts as if the neck was separate. You certainly can play other great stuff with jazz and swing stylings, and work around the limitations, but if you want to play C6, you aren’t going to play it on the U-12 (unless you have a knee lever lock, but then you’re not playing the Universal, so what’s the point.) Another way of saying it is, when you play a Universal tuning, you play THAT tuning, and not a C6. However, with respect to E9, the Universal does offer far greater bass range, at the expense of not having the low D note. So again, if you are a hard-core E9 player, and players like Lloyd Green are your heroes, you may not like the idea of using a knee lever for the D note, since the open D note IS part of the E9 tuning.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 29 September 2001 at 10:32 PM.]

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 29 Sep 2001 10:42 pm

Jeez! Who wants to emulate another player? - be it Emmons,Green or whoever.D string be damned! Universal - make that a KEYLESS universal - the thinking man's tuning.Any band leader hip enough to know the difference between tunings on a double neck will be able to dig the concept of the universal tuning.C'mon guys - what a lame bunch of excuses...I'll buy the "It looks cooler" argument - at least it's honest. Welcome to the "no lemming zone" Thank you.

Buck Reid · Post by **Buck Reid** » 29 Sep 2001 11:46 pm

I think tone is a good place to start:-)

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 30 Sep 2001 1:39 am

Im with you Bucky !!!! Short of Buddy or Junior Knight, Ive never heard anyone play a !2 string, be it single or double, and get the separation of tone in the tuning that you get with a D-10. The difference in body mass,pickup length etc are critical factors in tone.
Ive fooled with 12 string on & off for years, but I havent advertised the fact.I hope my ear is as critical as it needs to be, & it hasnt been satisfied yet.
The middle strings seem to lack the snap when playing country stuff & the plains seem too twangy for jazz, etc.The tunings seem either too loose or too tight at exactly the wrong times.I have experimented with everything from Eb, Bb & F tunings, etc & string gauging & pickups.
I dont feel that my having played a D-10 for years has prejudiced me... after all, I started with a 6 string electric hawiian guitar.
The tone I seek,the one in my head, is best acheived with a D-10.
That, Im sure, is not true for everyone, though.But there is a difference in the tone of 12 vs 10.
No way around it as far as I can tell.Kind of like push pull vs all pull

.....both good, but different.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 30 Sep 2001 1:40 am

I'll echo what someone else said. If I were starting out today, I'd seriously consider a Universal. But at 63 and having played a D-10 since I started on pedals (1969) I have no desire to change and I'm not in the market for a new steel.

The fact that almost all the "biggies" also play a D-10 does speak for the validity.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 30 Sep 2001 3:52 am

I think that the "Biggies play D10" argument speaks as much to the evolution and development path of this relatively young instrument (psg) and to human nature abhoring change than to any inherent superiority of the multi neck / tuning concept.

Even the biggest "biggie", the Big E, has stated on this forum that were he starting out today he would give some kind of universal (if not the current "standard" U12) tuning SERIOUS consideration, but that he will stay with D10 because he is so used to it (hell he practically INVENTED it)

there are indeed advantages/disadvantages to both.

"Different Strokes for Different Folks"- sometimes cliche's become cliche' because they are true.

"It's just music. It's playing clean and looking for the pretty notes."-Charles Parker

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"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
www.voicenet.com/~vanallen/ :: vanallen@voicenet.com :: www.lasttrainhome.com

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 30 Sep 2001 7:15 am

Just out of curiosity there, Smike, what COLOR is your U-12?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 30 Sep 2001 9:09 am

The guy asked, and I answered with the facts. I could easily enough debate statements like "it's the thinking man's tuning" and "Emmons said he would give a U-12 serious consideration if he was starting out" since these are flawed points, but to engage in a debate serves no purpose. The D-10 players on the Forum rarely get involved in these discussions for obvious reasons, and it's pointless for me as well. You asked, I answered, I'm done. Bye.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 30 September 2001 at 10:18 AM.]

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 30 Sep 2001 9:42 am

I could easily enough debate statements like "it's the thinking man's tuning" and "Emmons said he would give a U-12 serious consideration if he was starting out" since these are flawed points

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Buddy Emmons
Member
From: Hermitage, TN USA
posted 10 March 2000 07:43 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I were to start today, the U12 would probably be my choice, but I'm not sure I would go with the universal tuning as we know it, not that I don't think it's a good way to go. When there are great players like Jeff Newman and Maurice Anderson, who have proven the viability of the U12, it would be foolish of me to suggest that it wouldn't be a good choice. But I think I would choose an alternate route that would cover the E9th and offer room to add and not take away from the sound.
It's no sin to not play the C6 tuning. Jay Dee told me he knew enough about the C6 tuning to fill a thimble, and I'm sure Lloyd.Green wouldn't hesitate to say as much in a different way. Yet it has never kept Jay Dee or Lloyd from being acknowledged as two of the finest players ever to have played the instrument.

So if I were starting out today and career minded, I'd probably go with a 13th tuning that would cover country, western swing, and with a little manipulation, jazz. That and a little musical training should get you through any studio job you'd ever have to tackle. Of course if you had limited musical training, you could flounder around until you're 63 and then start spouting out advice.

For pedals and knees, I would have eight on the floor and eight knees. Five of the eight knees (rights, lefts, and one vertical) would be the same as my E9th. They would also change some of the same strings I change on the C6 tuning of my D10. That would leave three remaining knee levers (LL, V, and LR) that would be positioned in the middle of the guitar as they are on my D10 (except there is no middle vertical on my D10). Pedals one through four, and five knees, would work the E13 tuning. Pedals five through eight, and five knees, would be for the E6th.

But I'm not starting out today, so the single twelve I have is leaning toward the C6 tuning again. I use two of the pedals for a whole tone raise of the G (5) and a half tone raise for the Es (2 & 6). I've been slipping some E9th style bends on some jazz tunes and it sounds pretty cool. I don't know where it will take me but it's different, which in turn makes me sound a little different, and I could use some of that.

When all is said and done though, the money is still in the gliss sound using one to three notes, and mostly on the top of the tuning; and for that, you can get by with eight strings or less and a creative mind. Long live Jerry Byrd!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But I'm at a stage where I no longer want to split my time between two tunings. I have a 12 string Sierra devoted to the C6 tuning and a 12 string Carter on order that will have an E13th. When I receive my Carter, the following six months will be a period of discovery for me, which after then, I should know which way I want to go.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
go here to see a thinking man in action http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum1/HTML/013898.html [This message was edited by ebb on 30 September 2001 at 11:02 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 30 Sep 2001 11:28 am

Ebb, All you did was prove my point. First of all, he said he WOULDN"T play the U-12 tuning that the U-12 players play. And furthermore, it's just speculation. I deal in facts, not guesses. I'm gone, again, and I hope I don't come back.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 30 September 2001 at 12:33 PM.]

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 30 Sep 2001 11:33 am

Well, I love my Sierra U-12, Day setup,
E9 (extended)/B6 set up, WITH the 9th string tuned to D. With the set up I have, it feels very intuitive, and I really have a lot of options.

Gotta love the knee levers all in-line, the rubber tube encased rods.

I definitely have the best of both worlds, AND I am only into it by a year. I am very glad I started with it.

I gotta say tho that the D-10 is surely a sexy looking thang.

------------------
Bill Fulbright
1998 Sierra U12 7x5; Gibson ES-165; Peavey 50-410
ICQ# 2251620 Bill's Launch Pad

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 30 Sep 2001 11:50 am

For what it is worth I played a U12 for 5 or 6 years and then decided to try out a D10.

I vastly prefer the D10 and I am not remotely interested in emulating anybody.

main reasons:
1) Tone
2) Intonation (less compromise)
3) more options (I can change something on my C neck without screwing up something on my E neck)
4) Simplicity ( It is easyer for my to look at a C neck and hear my available options than with the U12)

The U12 works great for some guys and I am all for it. For me it was a waste of time.

Bob

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 30 Sep 2001 1:18 pm

gotta love E's line about having limited musical training, floundering till age 63 & then spouting advice.... too funny!!!
wish I had that much"limited" musical training

.
The E13 does seem to be the most viable way to go for a 12 string setup, but as he said, it does lean towards the E9.
Maybe 2 12 string guitars is the way to go ??? just joshin' ...

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 30 Sep 2001 4:43 pm

Having said I will continue with my D-10, I have to admit I've been playing around with a partial universal on my E9th neck. After my friend Dan Dowd pointed it out (lowering the E's) I've "toyed" with it. True not all the strings are there but one thing that is there is the equivalent to both the high G and D string on a C6th tuning.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 30 Sep 2001 7:05 pm

Back in the 30's and 40's tunings were kept secret. Alvino Rey did that too. A tuning in those days was like an invention. You kept it secret.

Now Buddy Emmons has come up with the newest latest Universal tuning. As he has said it is E9-E13-E6. I think it is great. It's all the SAME bar postions, (you won't get lost).

E6 is pretty much like C6, and E9 is E9.

Here is the tuning that BE is Experimenting
with.

[/tab]
F#
D#
G#
E
C#
B
G#
F#
E
C#
B
A
[tab]

Just look how close it is to E9,but you can play C6 pedals with it too, only it will be E6.
I can explain all the pedals , etc, and what they do, but will have to do it another day.

Buddy Emmons is an innovator. As he has said, the E9/B6 is not what he is looking for.He is going further and deeper than that with what I call the "Real Universal" onward and upward......al

.

smike · Post by **smike** » 30 Sep 2001 10:18 pm

guys -

thanks for all the responses... let me respond in kind:

1. 'looks cooler' - well, that's a matter of taste. i think universals look really cool, and some of the keyless universals look even cooler (mcclellan has a really cool klein, for example).

2. 'looks cooler, part II' - uh... no one really talked much about the weight. having spent years and years lugging bass rigs and p.a. systems (just because i'm a also an engineer with a recording studio and p.a., they expect me to do sound!!!), i am SO RELIEVED to drop 20 lbs just by switching to a universal.

3. 'the grandfather clause' - just as i thought, the biggest reason is that people have been playing d10's for years, love their guitars, and don't feel the need to switch.

4. 'me and buddy emmons' - well, i thought it would be kind of cool to have me and buddy mentioned in the same paragraph... but seriously, to suggest in any way what buddy might or might do as being in any way related to anything affecting my steel playing is just absurd. maybe in a couple of hundred years, but the bottom line important thing is to LOVE THE STEEL, and PLAY IT EVERY DAY... no matter what level you're at, and no matter which configuration you prefer.

am i right?

smike

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 30 Sep 2001 10:40 pm

Good Lord , Save me from this non-tempored,out of tune,reasoning. You have all missed the biggest reason of all to play and stay with the double ten,(not counting what it says in the bible about an instrument of ten strings!). Guess why no one that playes in tune, records with a universal twelve!
Think about it. Now, I'm ready for your answers,but before you say anything, be sure you REALLY know how to tune and understand temporing, mathmatical,graduating ear faults,etc. Do you really want to play in tune and do you know the diffrence? I don't care what you play,but you should. Just think about what's important to you, and what you want from your guitar. Want tone and to play in tune or would you rather switch from tuning to tuning to impress your self? Remember, I don't care, I sell both.
Potenteet R.J. Juzthunkaboudet III

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Sep 2001 10:40 pm

Mike Cass wrote:

Short of Buddy or Junior Knight, Ive never heard anyone play a !2 string, be it single or double, and get the separation of tone in the tuning that you get with a D-10. The difference in body mass,pickup length etc are critical factors in tone.

My Sierra SD-12 is unique in that the pickup slot loads from the front. This allows me to switch easily between 10 and 12 string pickups. I have come to the conclusion that 10 string pickups sound better! Not by much, but it is audible. "Separation of tone", as Mike called it, is the real issue.

This isn't to say that 12 string pickups sound bad! I have a Lawrence 712 that sounds better than most 10 string pickups - but it doesn't sound better than the 710.

A D-10 has overtones that you don't hear on an S-12. The other neck adds tension and resonance to the body. My SD-10 started life as a D12/10. I lost a little bit of sustain and "tone" when I removed the back neck. Not much, but enough that I noticed it. Also, a D-10 has less "cabinet drop" than a single neck guitar.

But all of these factors are very small, in my opinion. You can get more tone improvement out of a week's work on your right hand technique than you can by switching to a D-10 from an S-12 (and it's a lot cheaper!). That's just my opinion...

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 30 Sep 2001 10:46 pm

I'm moving this to the Pedal Steel forum, where it more rightly belongs.