Question for Chas about Joaquin's last guitar

Keith Grubb · Post by **Keith Grubb** » 3 Aug 2001 8:56 am

Chas,
I heard that you built Jouquin Murphey's last steel guitar. It was a 9 string pedal steel wasn't it? Could you tell us how it was set up if you remember? I just love to hear his playing on Spade Cooley's CD. He wasn't playing a pedal steel at that time was he? Thanks in advance for your time.

Keith

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 3 Aug 2001 10:57 am

Keith, When Joaquin was playing for Spade, it was non-pedal, and at times it was a D-8 lap guitar, (he auditioned for Spade on a Dickerson 6-string lap guitar), later he got the first T-8 Bigsby, Paul was a huge fan of his.

This was the original set up for his pedal guitar, however due to his age and dexterity it was modified and updated a bit, with knee levers, by Mike Johnstone. Mike was really the force that made all of that happen, from the initial 'he needs a guitar' to keeping everthing focussed to making sure that the 'exit' was as comfortable and dignified as possible.
<pre>
1 2 3 4 5 6
1 .013 G
2 .016 E Eb
3 .020 C C#
4 .024 A Bb
5 .028 G F#
6 .032 E Eb
7 .038 C# C
8 .068 C# C
9 .020 B
</pre>

He didn't use a volume pedal and he played pedals with both feet. Mike's set up had it so that each foot had two pedals and there were at least two knee levers. --Mike, help me out here--As an aside, imagine that you are in your mid 70s, you haven't played for about 14 years, your feet aren't as dextrous as they once were and now you have to learn how to play with knee levers, and he did.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 3 Aug 2001 11:41 am

Chas: In some things I've sent to Herb Steiner because he is a collector of such, was a list of non-pedal tunings which may or may not have been handwritten by Paul Bigsby.

I was wondering, if you saw the handwriting, would you be able to ID it or perhaps you know of someone else who could do it ? If so, I'll see if Herb can get a copy to you.

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 03 August 2001 at 12:42 PM.]

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 3 Aug 2001 1:53 pm

Paul-as the owner of several original Bigsby steels and all the parts and moulds that were bought out from Ted McCarty I have seen Paul Bigsby's writing on numerous things-always printed script which I can identify-if the list you have is printed(not written) I could likely verify if it was indeed by Paul Bigsby's hand

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 3 Aug 2001 5:19 pm

What happened was that Murph was having trouble getting around the 6 pedals the way he originally had Chas set them up.By the way,this particular copedant was also on the only other pedal steel Joaquin ever really played.It was a custom built 22" scale 8 stringer with the same 6 pedals built by a guy in Burbank in the early 70s.The only difference was that it didn't have the low octave C# string.That was the guitar he played the one and only time he played at Scotty's - 1974,I think-AND on the LP that Scotty produced that Murph cut in Nashville on his way home from the convention that same year.That guitar was repossessed by force by the builder's son and daughter when the builder passed away and that left Murph without a guitar for years(long sad story).
Anyhow,when Murph used to watch me play E9,he commented on how I always kept my foot on the same 2 or 3 pedals and wished he could play his tuning that way.I asked him if he'd ever tried knee levers before and he hadn't and he didn't think he could handle the added complexity.I explained why it would actually be easier than what he was doing now,so he told me to set it up however I wanted to and he would do his best to learn it.
So I basically removed pedals 5 and 6 and put them on knee levers.I put pedal 5 on LKR and pedal 6 on RKL.I also put a third lever on there which was LKL raising the 3rd string from C to D.Then I convinced him to try raising his 2nd string from E to F on the 2nd pedal - making that like the standard C6 pedal(raising the high E and lowering the Low E)which he'd actually never heard of before. To finish up,I moved the 4 remaining pedals apart by two pedal spaces as to form 2 seperated pairs of pedals - one pair to be used by each foot.The original pedal 1&2 in their original positions and pedal 3&4 in place of the original pedals 5&6.That way,he didn't have to move his feet around and they were always hovering over their respective pedals like an E9 players left foot.Since he didn't use a volume pedal,this arrangement worked out fine.I wanted to add a 4th lever cause I had the parts to do it,but neither one of us could think of a combination he couldn't already get.How he used that high B(9th string)and played it with his thumb was amazing,BTW.
Well,he took it home and shedded for about a month-then called me and said it was the best arrangement he could ever imagine having and played it that way for the rest of his life.Of course he would have said that about whatever I'd come up with and played the hell out of THAT. His last CD "Murph" was recorded using that copedant and the guitar is still sitting out in my studio right where he left it.Other players have sat down to that guitar and thought it was a good idea as well.In fact,Greg Leisz was over yesterday and was playing it and seemed to find it fascinating.Bobby Black said the same thing. Funny thing is,I can't play a damned thing on it.....Too weird for me. -MJ-

Keith Grubb · Post by **Keith Grubb** » 3 Aug 2001 8:24 pm

Chas and Michael,
Thank you so much for the information. Every now and new I like to read old posts about Joaquin. I'm not sure what it is about him, but I am fascinanted. His playing is fantastic.
By the way, I saw a picture of a book of tunings by Paul Bigsby on pg 160 of Lorene Ruymar's Hawaiian Steel Guitar book.
Thanks again.
Keith

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Aug 2001 8:42 pm

So Michael, did I follow that correctly? <pre>
LKL 1 2 LKR RKL 5 6
1 .013 G
2 .016 E +F -Eb
3 .020 C ++D +C#
4 .024 A +Bb
5 .028 G -F#
6 .032 E -Eb
7 .038 C# -C
8 .068 C# -C
9 .020 B </pre>

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 4 Aug 2001 8:46 am

Yes that's the correct layout - strange isn't it?

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 4 Aug 2001 9:41 am

As I recall, when they were going to do the '74 recording, Murph said they all went somwhere where there was a "pile of steels" and he picked out one he "thought he could play" and that was what they used. He also mentioned that Buddy Emmons was involved which made the experience much more enjoyable and rewarding.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 4 Aug 2001 10:17 am

Paul: Chas sent me a copy of a bill of a sale he has from Bigsby. I can say pretty assuredly that the list was not by him. There is such a difference in the writing.

Back in those days I was around Johnnie Vaughn from Norman, OK and he was an avid Murphey fan. In fact he showed me one of JM's intros and I still use it. I was also around Bob White's place in OKC a lot and either of them may have written it out for me to use as a beginner.

Chas: Thanks again for the "Holy Grail" receipt. I've got to show that to my friends as it ranks up there with my letter from Jerry Byrd. BTW, I'm still working through those sub-harmonic scales and that was a good jump start from you to me. Thanks again for that as well.

Maybe if Herb Steiner gets in on this he will show us the tuning charts I have referred to.

I couldn't help but notice the emotional similarity between Vance Terry and now Joaquin. I find it hard to imagine either of them being without their guitars. I mean I just can't see how they could do that.....
I know the bond between me and my steel and I feel the affection that others have expressed for both of these Giants but inside of me, I just don't understand ! It isn't a nice feeling either. Could it happen to me ? Or you ??

Regards, Paul

[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 04 August 2001 at 11:19 AM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 4 Aug 2001 2:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I couldn't help but notice the emotional similarity between Vance Terry and now Joaquin. I find it hard to imagine either
of them being without their guitars. I mean I just can't see how they could do that.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well it's actually even worse than that, when swing fell out of favor back in the '50s, and the music scene changed, (you could draw a parallel with the country music scene today), Joaquin didn't, and from his perspective, "nobody wanted to hear what he wanted to play". When I got his D-8 over a decade ago, I was playing in swing band that covered a number of Spade Cooley numbers and I was having to learn his solos, I probably don't have to tell you how easy that was, he was living in a trailer park in Pacoima, not a vacation destination, so I called him up to talk about the guitar and his tunings. I wanted to know how he got through those diminished structures so fast.

At that time he was a bit uncommunicative, fast forward to when I did get to meet him, he was genuinely astonished that anyone outside of his immediate circle knew who he was or for that matter had any interest in what he played. And how did he get through those structures so fast? He just did, it didn't matter what the tuning was.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 4 Aug 2001 5:33 pm

As far as I know his last stint as a regular sideman was with Cooley in 1954-1955, after Boggs had left the group.
He appears on the 1954 Decca sides that became the Dance-O-Rama set, but around that time Cooley's star was on the wane.
He got the all-girl band thing going on not long after, and after that I suspect Joaquin kept off the bandstand. Maybe Mike or Mylos Sonka might know of other gigs he did, but like Chas noted, Swing was definately out of favor by that time.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 4 Aug 2001 7:04 pm

Lee Jeffreis told me that on nights when Joaquin was feeling bored, he'd switch steel for standard guitar with his friend Jerry Compton. Joaquin on guitar - that I'd like to hear![This message was edited by Andy Volk on 05 August 2001 at 04:32 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 4 Aug 2001 9:55 pm

Jerry Compton was with the Plainsmen and he can play steel. He was Joaquin's closest friend.

Eric Stumpf · Post by **Eric Stumpf** » 5 Aug 2001 4:52 am

....speaking of Andy Parker and the Plainsmen...what is the time frame in which Joaquin played with these guys? I'm assuming it must have been before Spade or possibly in between Spade stints? I have a few of the Plainsmen 78's and are they ever HOT!!!

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 5 Aug 2001 9:15 am

Jerry Compton was telling me the other day how he begged Joaquin to learn E9 when his career started to sag but he hated E9.Murph told me he thought it was a "hillbilly gimmick" that "played itself".He hated the square changes and shrill tone that the Nashville E9 players always used - especially in the early days like Pete Drake,etc.I'm sure he could've and would've played the hell out of it but he just didn't have the desire.By the way,if you've not heard Jerry Compton,he's probably the closest player to early Joaquin that I know of.And no wonder - he's the ONLY guy that Joaquin took under his wing when he was a kid and taught all his tunings,etc.The same fire,musicality,clarinet-like solos,tin pan alley standards and all the rest.And all played on a modern Mullen guitar.Jerry was the source behind the idea of the low octave C# on Murph's last guitar,BTW.See,Jerry has a super low F(.80w)as his 10th string below his regular 9th string(F)on his otherwise fairly standard C6 neck on his D-10.Murph heard it,liked it and decided to work something like that into HIS tuning right around the time Chas was designing his guitar.
Jerry and I are discussing the possibility of doing some recording in the near future.Stay tuned... -MJ-

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 5 Aug 2001 9:37 am

Looking at the copedant I'm struck by the octave C#'s. The sacred steelers unison E's come to mind. Maybe they were tapped into a similar thing in their own individual ways. Thanks again, Michael and Chas.

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 5 Aug 2001 3:34 pm

Thanks, Chas & Michael. I find these anecdotes really interesting.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 5 Aug 2001 7:43 pm

Joaquin played with the Plainsmen while with Cooley and Tex Williams.
He used to do a radio show, gig and West Coast gigs, with the Plainsmen, he kind of split his time, but when it came to the crunch his main gig was Cooley, then Williams.
As far as I can tell, all he did was play, eat and sometimes he slept in the 1940s!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 5 Aug 2001 7:55 pm

I have a photo of Joaquin with the Plainsmen where he looks like he was in his mid-teens, but it's probably mid '40s. He was born 12-30-1923. There was a story of after he auditioned and was hired by Spade, he was underage to join the Union, so some of the band members went down with him to the Union Hall to insure his acceptance. That might have been around Nov '41, a month before he was 18, but I'm not sure. Spade took over Jimmy Wakely's band circa 1941 and there wasn't much recording in 1942 because of the wartime shellac rationing and later The Petrillo Ban which lasted until Sept '43. [This message was edited by chas smith on 05 August 2001 at 09:14 PM.]

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 6 Aug 2001 4:33 pm

Chas, did you hear about British writer Sue Van Hecke? (penned the recent Gene Vincent bio), she's working on a Cooley bio right now.

------------------
The future ain't what it used to be

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 6 Aug 2001 5:03 pm

Spade didn't have an illustrious ending to his career although he did have his final heart attack while he was getting a standing ovation. I suppose that counts for something.

Can you imagine playing a dance every weekend at the Santa Monica pier with 8000 people dancing.

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 7 Aug 2001 4:46 pm

Chas, it's an amazing scene to picture. I imagine there must be some footage somewhere.
I understand that a couple of the 'Lippert' Westerns he did circa 1950 feature a certain amount of live footage, although whether or not that's actually from the bandstand or the TV show is questionable.

I suppose the old KTLA tapes would have to be somewhere.

In regards to his popularity, I look at it this way, by late 1953 Cooley was still a popular attraction, even if he hardly entered the studio to record commercial sides.
With Noel Boggs and Freddie Love; Cooley's band would play from 9 pm to 2 am at the Santa Monica Ballroom, his KTLA television show ‘The Spade Cooley Show’ would broadcast from 8 to 9 pm, then his NBC Network radio show would broadcast from 9:30 to 10 pm.
Plus deejay Tennessee Jim would broadcast from the KFVD Radio booth at the ballroom over 10 pm. to 2am.

In his day, he ruled Los Angeles.
The end of his career was far from pretty, and I guess sometimes it's hard to seperate his accomplishments from his deeds, but that's really not the topic, so I'll bow out on this note, when will those Dance-O-Rama sides be issued?
Even if I did buy some of the Dance-O-Rama sets, I don't have anything to play 78 rpm records on! (sigh)

bill mitchell · Post by **bill mitchell** » 7 Aug 2001 5:39 pm

Reading this I remembered somebody giving me a Joaquin tape many years ago, and after some digging I found it. Fantastic music, But more questions than an answers. The hand witten notation says Buddy Emmons on bass and Terry Bethel on rythym guitar. I can hear Emmons counting the beat, and the electric player is almost mixed out. I can also hear somebody (Joaquin?) singing with his hot jazz licks. The tunes are Murphey's Blues, Pickin; the Big 'Un, Hot wires (outstanding stuff), Moon Glow, and even Sweet Georgia Brown. What do I have here? Bootleg?[This message was edited by bill mitchell on 07 August 2001 at 06:41 PM.][This message was edited by bill mitchell on 07 August 2001 at 06:44 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 7 Aug 2001 7:23 pm

Bill, that's the tape that Dewitt Scott produced back in '74? On the cassette, in the legal paragraph, it has 1977 as the publishing date and 1982 as the copywrite date so somebody knows, I don't. And that's Joaquin singing with his solo, said he couldn't not do it and if he was really into it he needed a napkin or a bib.

Jason, I made an attempt to find out about the KTLA tapes about a decade ago and it would have been easier to get into Fort Knox. Someone with some "juice" might have a better chance.

The Cooley biography should be pretty interesting. The public persona and the private persona can be worlds apart. If you think of the kind of personality that it takes to be a 'star' on that level, and in that time frame, they can be a bit complicated. It seems different today in that with the 'manufactured stars' there's a team of handlers protecting their investment/property. I also don't mean to imply that there aren't 'real' stars today or that they didn't have to work hard to get where they are, in fact, by the time they get up there, they've had to put up with so many producers and jerks it's a wonder they aren't all serial killers.