Road steeler vrs. session steeler

KEVIN OWENS · Post by **KEVIN OWENS** » 3 Jul 2001 5:48 am

Mike & Dave,
I applaud both of you. Tell it like it is.

Kevin

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 3 Jul 2001 8:04 am

How good any player is with people skills coupled with their personal musicanship will determine the credit, or the blame, for each musicians individual successes and failures. These skills come into play on every gig the musician takes for employment. Some players learn this, some don't.
Paul

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 3 Jul 2001 8:13 am

I tried the bitter, resentful and jealous approach to being a professional musician and found that it didn't work for me.

Wasn't Pete Drake the subject of the same trashing from a segment of the steel playing community not to long ago ?

Bob

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 3 Jul 2001 8:26 am

Paul,
I absolutely agree with you. I think it also goes without saying!
There is also a fine line between "people skills" and "kissing A**!"
There is also a lot of us who never get the chance to use our "people skills" if we never get our foot in the door.( re: Buddy's reply on your 90%)
I wondered how long it would take, pulling Theresa'a chain before you'd show up!

My congratulations to you on your success.

Dave (my opinion hasn't changed)

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 3 Jul 2001 8:26 am

This is an interesting thread to me.
I have a question.

What is the driving force that compels a person to pursue a career as a session steel player?

I understand the pride and sense of accomplishment when you see your name on a hit record and hear your playing on the radio.

But, for lack of a better phrase... "Where's the Beef?!"

Is there a retirement plan?
Stock options?
Medical/Dental for you and your family?
What are the general perks?
What kind of raises are standard?
Any end of year bonus?
Is there such a thing as getting a promotion?
What about general job security (ie: can you put the kids through college playing sessions?)
Who do you actually work for?
Do you need to have a day job in addition to being a session player?
What are your normal hours?

If there were more than a few guys doing the session work, would there be enough to keep everybody "in the black" financially?

Has steel session playing made anyone a millionaire?

What is the "brass ring" that folks are reaching for when they say they want to break-in to the session steeler scene?

(and BTW, who do they use on steel in the video?... session player or road player?).

I ask these questions with the utmost respect (and curiosity) to those who are willing to share their expierience.

Thanks in advance for any light you can shed on this career choice.
-pb

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Jul 2001 8:48 am

Pete
Yes, there is a retirement plan if the sessions go through the union, and the money can be significant because one union session a day (3 hours) oftentimes pays much more than 24 hours on the road in someone's bus.

Many guys do 2-3 sessions per day. If they're in demand enough to request "leader" scale, the bucks double. Do the math.

I can think of quite a few session players (though not all steel players) who have been conservative in their demeanors and lifestyles and have probably become millionaires through successful investing... mutual funds, real estate, etc. Just like many middle-class folk of all professions have done during the 80's and 90's.

I believe the main attraction of having a successful studio career is that, after you've seen the country a few thousand times through the windows of a bus, and have partied with all the road women you wanted to, and drank all the liquor you felt like consuming, that life looks rather dim compared to coming home to a nice house, a loving wife/partner, family, and the pleasure of your own bed, with your clothes in a closet and chest of drawer... not a suitcase.

I quit "the road" at the age of 33, 20 years ago. I realized that I was not getting any younger and that the most valuable resource I had was my time. When I toured, 90% of my time was as a prisoner... of the bus, the motel, the restaurant, etc.... When at home I'm in command of my time and my destiny. So, if I were to go on another road gig, it would have to pay enough that I could justify the discomfort and emotional loneliness involved.

BTW, I don't consider going out with Johnny Bush for 2-3 days around TX to be a "road gig," though even those trips don't have the allure that sleeping in my own bed does. funny what age does to a guy!

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 3 Jul 2001 12:31 pm

Somebody tell me why my "people skills" worked for me in every other aspect of the business but failed to work for me when I needed them trying to get into session work?
FOR SALE: One slightly over used box of People Skills. Limited Warranty: Won't work in recording studios.

Oh! Now I get it...my playing sucked.

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 3 Jul 2001 12:35 pm

Your playing Sucked??? I think not,Earl

well....the opprotunity to hear a player in a live setting tells all.
Thats why, even once you are hired, you are never really in there till they know beyond a doubt that you wont fold.Live gigs were where most of us honed the hours, days, weeks months, years etc of practice.
Thats the acid test.If a guy cant cut it live, how could he ever manage it in the studio ????
By that I mean: manage to play in tune, on time ,creatively & with some originality... if you dont hear it in 4 hours it dont exist, sorry.
That is not to say that every club player would make a great session player, but c'mon... either you can play or you cant !!!! The studio environment is the live factor to the 5th power,imho.Its being under the microscope where every little nuance can be dissected & studied. No one can tell me that someone would hire a person who couldnt perform adequately on stage, to work on a session!!!!!
These "people skills" are most certainly a neccessity if you have an empty gun & an agenda to fulfill.The term people skills really denotes a path whereby one is able to maniplulate others & thus meet their own agenda. No agenda,no need for "skills".... just plain old fashioned gettin along with others will suffice.I agree Dave, its a fine line....

I have had the opprotunity, on occassion, to recommend others for work. If I hear them & they stumble, play out of tune & dont have some depth to their playing, I wont recommend them. Why would anyone else do the same, except to keep a door open, in case of a future need to find a place to land, after the falling of an ax... thats an old game..& it explains alot of the current problems we are discussing here

. Btw, my apologies to Mr. Dugmore for my earlier comments, that was unfair of me & totally uncalled for.I'll try to not let it happen again.
Moreover, if a player with the unfortunate attributes above gets his foot in the door, how did that travesty come to fruition???
I'll lay odds that he's a master at "people skills"

or has powerful friends(same thing).
As for trying to be a profesional musican while carrying anger & frustration around...I suggest you try a sustained & exerted effort at making some headway here in Nashville before you decide to favor me with any wisdom.Its easy to armchair quarterback...try getting a little blood on ya (yer own) & lets hear the tune then

I sure wouldnt expect anyone to make room for me at a loss to their accustomed way of life, but if my foot ever gets firmly wedged in the door(not likely) & anyone should decide to try some of their people skills to remove it(very likely), we would have words

In short....the justifications for "people skills" could best be summed up by a quote from Col. Sherman Potter......"HORSE HOCKEY" !!!!
[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 03 July 2001 at 02:01 PM.]
[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 03 July 2001 at 02:08 PM.][This message was edited by Mike Cass on 03 July 2001 at 02:25 PM.]

Smiley Roberts · Post by **Smiley Roberts** » 3 Jul 2001 1:52 pm

In NashVILE,if you don't fish,or golf,or BOTH,you don't get anywhere. I know a few "pickers" that couldn't pick their noses,but got "choice" jobs,because they did one,or the other,or BOTH,w/ band leaders,in "power positions". Mike Cass is right!! P O L I T I C S!! The Nashville A.F.M. is a JOKE!! Ask me. I've been here 32 years!

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<pre> ~ ~
©¿© ars longa,
mm vita brevis
-=sr€=-</pre>

[This message was edited by Smiley Roberts on 03 July 2001 at 02:56 PM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Jul 2001 3:27 pm

Uh, Smiley... I DO have a bass boat for sale, in case you want to give the session scene another shot.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 3 Jul 2001 4:24 pm

Let's see, examples of people skills:

1.Man, that's the best song I've ever heard! (while all the time you're thinking "this is the worse written piece of crap I've ever heard!")
2."Let's get together" ( in a pig's eye!)
3."Man, this is the best studio I've ever played in, and beleive me I've played in them all!)
4. "You sure have a beautiful voice, I know you're going to go far in this business!"
5. " You're so good.I sure hope you'll call me again, 'cause I just love pickin' with ya!"
6. "Hey, give me a call, I'll do all the overdubs for nothin'!)
7. "Hey ol' buddy, use me on that session you got comin' up and I'll use you on this thing I got coming up real soon"
8."Hey, just keep this between us, but I'll do that for ??? if you'll use me."
9." I'll bring along my, banjo, Dobro, guitar, too"
10.Do you play golf?
11. "oh, did I tell ya I play steel, too?"

And, on and on and on! I'm sure you have heard them too!
Shmooze... kiss A**...politically correct..."Politics!" What's the difference?
Anything that get's you there and keeps you there whether you can play or not. "Horse hockey or bull puckey", it's all the same!

Dave [This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 02:01 AM.]

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 3 Jul 2001 4:43 pm

Dave, I love it...thats too funny.I might need to jack the price up on my People Skills Box. Looks like it might be worth more than I thought just for the laughs.Looks like my box came with one thing yours didn't....one tube of lip stick.

Bob Hempker · Post by **Bob Hempker** » 3 Jul 2001 5:21 pm

Dave,Mike, and Earl,
I swore I wouldn't jump into this,because I got chastised by a couple of people on the forum before in a similar thread, but you guys have hit the nail on the head!!!! I am so sick of a player's ability and talent being judged by how many hit recordings they have or have not played on. I still adhere to the theory that a real "pro," given half a chance will do a respectable job when called upon. Just about every studio player, with the excpeption of Brent Mason, worked the road before doing studio work. The world has been cheated out of hearing many great players because they didn't "play the games" with the Producers and such. I've been on the road since 1969, and am still out here busting my butt. I've been told by "artists" that " I can't risk my career and fight my producer on who does or does not play on my recordings." Well, what about people like Ernest Tubb, Conway Twitty, Bill Anderson, etc. when they were current stars using their people. Seems like they were pretty successful. What about Willie Nelson? Those were the folks who had the backbone to tell their producer; "I'm using my people, and if you don't like it, I'll get another producer." We need more of those kind of people. It keeps C/W music sounding fresh. I also think that by today's standards; You have to be a friend with the LA guys who have taken over Nashville. You must have a pony tail, earring, or cowboy hat. Please let me hear something besides bad Ralph Mooney imitations.

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Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 3 Jul 2001 5:47 pm

I have been truly blessed during my lifetime........I have sucessfully avoided being involved in anything that required me to golf or fish! www.genejones.com

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 3 Jul 2001 6:15 pm

Bob, yer my hero !!!

yep, absolutely, 100%....if I want to hear Ralph I'll put on Waylon or Wynn, etc.If I want to hear Pete I can put on George,etc.
In demo situations we are all frequently asked to play like someone else... perhaps the writer/producer/plugger has a definite vibe in mind...
However, if I was playing on a master,possibly headed for radio, you would hear ME, not a re-hash of Pete or Ralph. If one has made it that far your talents & abilities should be well enough respected that some lattitude should be involved(if you have truly gotten there on those attributes, & not "people skills").
On the very few things Ive done which hit the airwaves, I was never told what or where to play... it was suspected that I already knew or I wouldnt be there.Of course none of those were any where near a hit record, (something Im not inclined to take credit for either way)....
but I played Me, not Pete or Buddy or Ralph or John,etc.They are in the union book too

& I assume that if they were desired, their phones would've rung, not mine, since i used no people skills to get the call.
I love it when I hear a great sign a phrase with his own signature... & feel embarrassed when someone signs with someone elses.At that point, if you aint recognizable by your own thing, you should donate a portion of your earnings to the one you plagarized. In any other artistic profession, a lawsuit & loss of earnings would be in your near future.

( the writing profession,including songwriting etc). Get a style, or at least get some humility...& remember, theres always a faster gun out there ...

Pete Mitchell · Post by **Pete Mitchell** » 3 Jul 2001 6:47 pm

Forescore and Seven Years Ago, ....OOPS!!! Golly Gee Whiz Guys, I got to play PRODUCER just recently on a Brigitte London CD (also available on 8 track

) entitled Modern Day Mae West, and guess what? Not one, but TWO steel guitar players worked on the session; one being "my bass fishing buddy," Herbie Steiner; and the other being "my golf playing buddy," Ricky Davis!! They both sounded great, but somehow they played refreshingly DIFFERENT!

Redd Volkaert is on guitar and Dale Watson is on vocals AND guitar. And on keyboard, the Head Shark hisself, Earl Poole Ball. The CD comes in three sizes, coasters, frisbees, and one that plays in that high falootin' contraption called a CD player. I recommend you play it through 8 track speakers for highest fidelity. .....Pete

P.S. Herb Steiner, don't you dare sell that boat to Smiley just because I landed all the BIG ONES!!!

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 3 Jul 2001 10:48 pm

They way this topic changed into what it became, tells a lot about "peoples skills"

JJ

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 3 Jul 2001 11:42 pm

You hit that nail right there, Johan!!

Interesting, isn't it?

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 3 Jul 2001 11:59 pm

I hear you Johan.....

The recording biz is like every other type of business. People advance for a number of reasons, some objective (e.g. sales figures for a sales guy), but there are always subjective factors.

There are a number of factors that aren't directly related to playing that I know influence getting called back. For instance, showing up on time well rested. Having equipment ready to go with a minimum of tweaking. Having everything available and ready to go that might possibly be used on the date(e.g. a lap steel, dobro, effect or amp).Tuning up quickly and acurately. And then there are the factors that can be lumped under the umbrella of 'attitude'. Don't whine about anything (but especially studio politics). If the producer or artist makes a stupid, brain dead suggestion, try to find the motivation for why they are suggesting something dumb. After all, it's your problem: you aren't playing what they want to hear. And it's their gig, they have been given the responsibility to do what they want. Get behind the vision of what the producer/artist/leader hears for the song (even if you have a better idea). Don't get too serious about it (it's just music). If the producer/artist/leader jumps up and down about a take that you think is mediocre, just smile and accept the compliment. Often you can go back later and try something better, if you have a good relationship with the producer/engineer. Don't whine. Don't try to prove anything. The producer isn't looking for you to knock him out with the best steel part he has ever heard, he just wants you to do the job. He'd rather you come up with something that moves the song a fraction up in some direction rather than a totally hip steel part that doesn't particularly move the song. Touch base with the producer and leader after the work. You can call that shmoozing or 'politics', but I know when I was contracting software development, I tended to use people with those sorts of followup skills.

Did I mention that nobody want's to hire somebody who whines (especially about studio politics).

I haven't spent a lot of time around Nashville, but very few of the top players around here do the sort of over the top 'politics' that people have been describing. And let's face it, the people who don't get called to a session have no idea why somebody else got called. They weren't there. I know that it's easy to blame politics, but I'd be willing to bet it was a combination of playing, track record, and the sort of 'business' skills I described above.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 4 Jul 2001 12:55 am

Johan, Nick, and Dan,
I see you don't know anything about Nashville!

Bob,
once again, you are right on target. Of course, you know about this town first hand and how it works.By the way, Roy's Toys is great. I really enjoyed it and your playing on it. Great job!

Dave[This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 01:59 AM.][This message was edited by Dave Robbins on 04 July 2001 at 02:15 AM.]

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 4 Jul 2001 5:00 am

This is a very interesting topic. I have a question for some of the folks contributing here.

Please note I am asking this in all sincerity after having read the thread and thought about it. But I am a part time player with no Nashville aspiration or experience, which is a good thing given my capability.

It has been stated that its politics that prevent a great road player from winning the gig of the A-team studio players who are providing excellent product for their producer clients.

Now consider, a hot new gun shows up in town and trys unsuccessfully to take the road gig of some of the great players who are contributing to this thread, then that must be politics. Or is that the product being provided is doing the job and there's no reason to change?

Thanks.

Bill

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Carter D-10 8+9, BCT, TPPP

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 4 Jul 2001 5:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Johan, Nick, and Dan,
I see you don't know anything about Nashville!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dave you are right,I even have never been there, and probably never am able to.
About "People Skills", has to do with manners and way of treating people decent. Is the same everywhere around the world, doesn't matter if you are in Nashville, Beiing or Amsterdam. Good luck with your mission, whatever it may be

Johan

Greg Derksen · Post by **Greg Derksen** » 4 Jul 2001 6:41 am

I have a little Home Studio where I do
what I consider Demo's, I know this is way
different than the Nashville scene where I
am, but in reading the posts some things
seem the same.
There seems to be A-Teams in every city,
the question is how do you get on the A-Team,
or the B and C team,
When I use the A-Team players I am usually
pleased, they are quick, and creative, and
generally have their crap together.
When I use players that have not worked as
much in the studio, if their attitude is
great , it usually works out. They usually
realize they need more time in the studio
( play less, and play the right part) but
that only comes with experience .
However nothing is worse than this, Ya Ya
"I'm a great player and this is a Vanity
project" attitude, It probably is and it probably isn't your type of music (Exactly),
but we could be digging a well in Australia
heat at the same time.
Nothing would be better than, A great player
with Diverse Chops and ability on these
Vanity Projects, I would love to have Brent
& Paul on these Demo's. Why?
Because when I start getting a headache in
the afternoon at least its not cause of
players attitudes, its cause I should have
gone to bed earlier.
Politics is everywhere, name dropping,
drinking with the right players, I would
still think in Nashville your ability as a
player would be paramount, even with all the
BS politics. Which I don't doubt exists.
Nashville Rocks, L.A. Swings, New York ???
Like being a Chamealeon? That seems to be
the colours of the month. I would bet there
are players that hobnob to a level above
their ability, but Paul and Brent are there
because they can change in a heartbeat and
make it sound authentic. Greg

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 4 Jul 2001 9:00 am

Ignorance is bliss...
I thought fan fair was over a few weeks ago ?
As I said earlier...put your current life on hold... drop everything, load the SUV(which you'll be pawning soon)& trek on down to the city of broken dreams(rich guys,leave the bankbook & credit cards at home) & get yer nose bloodied (musically speaking).Oh, & you know those fellows from here who you speak to semi-regularly?? Make sure to call them when you arrive & tell them youre here to stay & see how long it takes before they get back to you

IF Buddy's words werent good enough for you, then you deserve a good a** kicking(musically speaking)...& this town will give it to you.
I dont know about you Dan, & the recent other posters, but I started this journey in 1959 at age 6 & had earned my first $'s behind the steel by the time I was 13 years old.
I think that ammount of time & my experiences qualify my statements. I have nothing to prove to you or anyone else.Oh & thanx for the recording tips

I know how hard it is for some of you to believe what we're saying... some of you know some of the same folks here that we do...but seeing them on a personal basis vs. being in competition with them is 2 different things.... except for 2 guys I know, who btw, REALLY have nothng to prove

no competing with them

As for whining...you totally missed our point, owing to the fact that you've never tried to make a living here.I doubt that Dave,Earl,Bob, Smiley or any others including myself have whined in the studio... give us a little credit.However, there is no one & I MEAN NO ONE, from Nasville who has posted here that has not personally whined to me, & I to them at one time or another about this very thing(whether they'll admit it or not

)!!!!
We are just trying to help you local pickers to realize how it really is here & not to believe the whitewashed,"Its all good" version some would spoon feed you.
I dont tell you how to run your business & I would appreciate the same courtesy...perhaps YOUR "people skills" are a little rusty?
Sort of me like calling up GM , telling them whats wrong with their corporation & how to fix it....
Walk a mile in my shoes & then you can judge me. Most of us here have been where you are ... but I havent seen any of you picking up checks at our local union hall....
Now, take that with ya...

ps...my spare room is available, free, 6 mos time limit...to anyone who feels like stepping up to the plate & getting one heck of an education

[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 04 July 2001 at 12:40 PM.]
[This message was edited by Mike Cass on 04 July 2001 at 09:51 PM.]

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 4 Jul 2001 9:40 am

Mike, I concur. I would like to get my hands on the real hand book of "Making It In The Nashville Studio". The one I got in 1968 was too idealistic and required a pair of rose colored glasses to read it.

[This message was edited by Earl Erb on 04 July 2001 at 08:09 PM.]