Deluxe Reverb for PSG

thurlon hopper · Post by **thurlon hopper** » 15 Nov 2006 8:05 am

Read with interest all the posts about the Deluxe Reverb Amp and as i own a reissue DR, ilike it for guitar just fine but i have to say that compared with my Twin It lacks a lot of the fullness and warmth of the Twin's sound. I play both of them with A JBL in an enclosure, An EVM in an open box and an Altec 4178H in an open box. With all of the opinions expressed here i still say that each amp has it's designated application for reproducing sound.I've own 2 Nashville 400's a Session 500, a Nashville 1000 and for my present basement playing the best sounding amp of them all is the Twin for PSG. No matter how many bells and whistles you hang on the DR it will never be close to the Twin
for PSG. TJH 58 years playing experience

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Nov 2006 1:15 pm

FWIW the "reissue" isn't a "reissue" - it's a printed circuit board amp with a similar circuit, different components, different transformers and a different cabinet. It in no way compares to a silverface or blackface Deluxe Reverb, which are generally considered some of the "warmest" sounding amps ever made. But it also is totally different from a Twin - you might get a semi-valid comparison using 6L6's and rebiasing, but it's still a different animal with a different inherent sound.

However, tone is always subjective...personally, I like the Twin the LEAST among Fender tube amps for steel. Unless you can run it almost flat-out (which will break windows), they sound cold as heck to me...and worse with the speakers mentioned.

But it all depends on what sound you're looking for, and amp setup is an art in itself.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 November 2006 at 01:18 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Nov 2006 2:35 pm

Low-powered amps don't usually have a lot of lows (fullness). Most tone controls operate on a "cut" principle, and by the time you reduce the settings to get a "full sound", there's very little real power left to drive the low frequencies using a speaker (whose efficiency drops dramatically at lower frequencies).

Five to ten watts will make a nice "earphone sound", but it won't do squat pushing a speaker.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Nov 2006 5:07 pm

Thurlon,
I have had the same experience as you with the new Fenders. I like the Deluxe RI quite a bit. Its a great amp. But I do need to fight it a bit to keep it from getting shrill. I have the same experience with the old ones.

I like the new ri twins for steel much better. Such a beautiful perfect tone comes out of those things. I'm wondering if a mid control on the deluxe would help.

------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 15 November 2006 at 05:08 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Nov 2006 8:59 pm

"Five to ten watts will make a nice "earphone sound", but it won't do squat pushing a speaker."

That's an old misconception. Wattage has nothing to do with frequency response or pushing a speaker. Or volume, for that matter.

The 12-watt Fender brown Princeton is one of the most full-sounding, wonderfully-voiced amps on the planet.

the Deluxe Reverb, at 22 watts, can rattle windows with bass response when set up right.

And my tiny ZVex Nano - all 1/2 watt of tube power...can drive a 4x12 Marshall cabinet with a very full, rich tone...but at a nice, comfortable volume.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 16 Nov 2006 7:09 am

I AB'd my '71 twin reverb with my son's '66 deluxe reverb. I could not get a decent tone for my steel out of the deluxe, but the twin has a very warm wonderful tone, even with volume set at 3-4. And the 'warmth stays there up to 10 with the twin. That's using original shobud pickups. The deluxe wouldn't come close no matter what you did, even with 6L6's.

But, just almost the opposite with a tele. My son could get beautiful tone out of the deluxe, but, although the tele through the twin sounded good, still not as good as the deluxe. To me, the twin is the ultimate tube steel amp.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Nov 2006 7:32 am

I'm with James. There is a gap between the Deluxe and the Pro that was never filled with a Fender amp that is good for steel. A Vibrolux with a single 12 might have done it. I tried a silverface Vibrolux (40 watts) with the stock 10s unplugged and the amp plugged into a 15" JBL. It sounded just like a Twin, only not as loud - but way louder and cleaner than a Deluxe. A single 12" would probably also sound good with a Vibrolux. It still doesn't have a mid tone control, but I was nevertheless able to get good steel tone equivalent to a Pro or Twin. A Pro gets a little more headroom than a Vibrolux, but it is the same size and almost as heavy as a Twin. But of course, the Deluxe is a great guitar amp.

thurlon hopper · Post by **thurlon hopper** » 16 Nov 2006 1:45 pm

Jim, FWIW i love the sound of my DR RI with my Les Paul Elite sereies Epi, my Tradition Jerry Reid custom and my '94 Tele, also quite acceptable with my Samick 650 Jazz model but for steel it's a piece of crap even though i like it better than the '74 DR
he plays through. He likes the RI better too. Since adding JJ
tubes the headroom seems to have increased, but the reson the Twin eats it's breakfast is because the headroom just isn't there idon't care what year of DR you're talking about. If you seroisly think the DR will match the Twin for steel sound i have to wonder what kind of tone you find acceptable for PSG. There is no way this side of Hades that the DR will ever measure up. MHO TJH
I meant that my bandmate uses a '74 DR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 16 Nov 2006 6:08 pm

thurlon - the Deluxe won't match up at the same volume, but at lower volumes than the Twin it works great. Do you think Lloyd Green's late-60's steel tone sucks? That's a DR in a lot of cases.

David - Fender made a bunch of in-between amps...but the Vibrolux is NOT one of them. It's lower powered, smaller iron, and meant for early breakup.

The Pro Reverb is a warmer Twin. The 1x15 Vibroverb is stupendous for steel, as is the 1x15 Vibrasonic. So is a Bassman head - just add reverb if you want it. And a Bandmaster Reverb with a 2x15 cab would work as well.

I have a '69 Pro Reverb and a '64 Vibroverb Custom, both formerly used for guitar; now dialed-in for steel. Plenty of headroom, tons of volume, and a huge, harmonically-rich tube tone. I can play them clean...or as is my preference, bias them a tad warmer, stick in some Tung-Sol 5881's and play with a warmer tone, just slightly hiting a very smooth breakup when driven merely via the volume pedal (which I do not use for the usual purposes).

I'd suggest a Pro Reverb - reasonably priced, bulletproof, and just a tremendous tone.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 16 Nov 2006 11:46 pm

Jim, I have a Pro Reverb with a 15" JBL reconed to 4 ohms, and of course I love it. And I'm sure I'd love a Vibroberb, but they are rare and expensive. And both of those are the same size as a Twin, and almost as heavy. I was just lamenting the lack of anything smaller, but with more headroom than a Deluxe. A Vibrolux with a 12 would fill that spot nicely, but Fender only made them with 10s. The Vibrolux I tried with an external 15 was a silver face, and it had a surprising amount of clean headroom. I think a Vibrolux with an efficient 12 would give the NV112 a run for its money.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 17 Nov 2006 5:31 am

Actually, I've heard a Vibrolux that can almost bury a Twin. It belongs to Bob Warford, Tele-bender who used to play for Ronstadt, the Everlys. etc. His was modded by Red Rhodes with a larger OT and JBLS, and revoiced to kill some of the JBL harshness. It's got headroom that's scary - I played my Rhodes pickup Tele though it and it was almost as loud and as clean as the SF Twin I had at the time. Bob uses an ancient EH LPB-1 booster in front, which gives him his signature "dirty" tone (he's played with that same exact sound for over 30 years!), but without the LPB-1 it's as clean as a whistle, and blisteringly loud.

PS - Vibroverbs are not that expensive, and actually pretty light in comparison to the Twin and Pro. The '64 Vibroverb Custom is a BF resissue with SRV mods added to it - which are great for clean tones and also kick up the power to about 60 watts. I see used ones sporadically for $1300 or so, which is a decent price for essentially a custom-shop, hand-wired amp.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 17 November 2006 at 10:54 AM.]

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 20 Nov 2006 12:07 am

"Five to ten watts will make a nice "earphone sound", but it won't do squat pushing a speaker."

Some of the biggest, fattest guitar tones of the 20th century were recorded with 10-15 watt amplifiers. These include the first couple of Led Zeppelin albums (low wattage Supro lap steel amps), plus pretty much everything that Larry Carlton recorded up to the late 70s (the Fender Princeton was his amp of choice).

As has been pointed out, there's nothing inherent in a low wattage power section that would change the EQ stack for the preamp. On the contrary, a lower power amp output would increase the amount of power amp distortion versus speaker distortion, which (IMHO) fattens up an overdrive sound.

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 20 Nov 2006 12:55 am

Regarding my experience with amplifiers, I haven't had many at all. I started with a Fender Vibrolux Reverb back in 1964 with guitar, and when I started playing steel, I moved up to a Fender Twin from around the 70's era. The Vibrolux was good for playing around the house at that time.

I liked the sound of the Twin as I never had to play that loud anyways, so I never got any distortion...unless I needed some...then I added a floor pedal unit for it.The Twin had a clean sound as I had JBL's installed and I could adjust and get the right sound I wanted to hear.

However, after I stopped playing in bands and started doing sound reinforcement for local country and rock bands, Everything got miked. Usually a Sm57 was a favorite. Anyways, I could see the bigger difference with using a 3 way crossover to separate the different sounds areas (20-20k).

I guess I would prefer an amp now that had a crossover built-in with a large speaker for bass, a middle sized speaker for midrange, and a horn or tweeter for the highs. That would give me I figure the best, clearest sound overall.

Of course you still have to adjust for the particular room your playing in, and as the room fills up with people, adjust again.

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1971 Emmons D-10 8/7 #1568 D, Rosewood

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Nov 2006 7:16 am

Randall, I predict you would not like the sound of guitar or steel going directly from the guitar amp into a 3-way speaker system. The highs and mids would be too harsh, and the limited cut-only EQ of the amp would not be able to tame them and still maintain adequate clean headroom for the lows. It is an easy experiment. Use an amp head, or disconnect the internal speaker of a combo, and go into a full range PA speaker with a horn tweeter. The typical single 10"-15" guitar speaker automatically shifts the voicing lower and gives the sound we are use to for guitar and steel. If you then mic that limited (in a good way) guitar sound into a flat PA with a 2- or 3-way speaker, you will simply reproduce that limited sound at a louder volume, which is fine. The single instrument speaker of guitar and steel amps has been refined for 70 years to sound good. If you bypass that and go to a flat multi-way speaker system, you are starting over from scratch with a completely different sound. With serious EQ tweaking some people like that sound, but most people I think prefer the traditional guitar speaker sound, which can be miked if needed. The guitar amp and speaker are really part of the electric guitar musical instrument. When you bypass either one, you have a different sounding instrument. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 20 November 2006 at 07:18 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Nov 2006 8:55 am

The 12-watt Fender brown Princeton is one of the most full-sounding, wonderfully-voiced amps on the planet.

Do tell?

Some of the biggest, fattest guitar tones of the 20th century were recorded with 10-15 watt amplifiers.

Izzata fact?

Clearly, you guys are talking "straight guitar, soft-compression, sweet overdrive" stuff that's not even in the realm of pedal steel!

Okay, well...let's see a list of all those great pedal-steel hits that were recorded with those little (but soooo wonderful-sounding) 10-15 watt amps?

Okay, forget "hits". Let's see a list of great pedal steel albums that were recorded with those (once again, "wonderful sounding") little 12 and 15 watt amps?

Uhh, I can't hear you?!

Type louder, I still can't hear you?!

Can I see a show of hands?

Well, it appears we may be talking different animals then!

You guys are talking "fat" Led Zepplin sounds, and I'm talking "fat" Curly Chalker sounds! I'm talking pedal steel, and you guys are talking something else...straight guitar, or maybe lap steel.

And what's that you say? Power has nothing to do with tone?

Oh sure, that's why vehicle radios and sound systems (that used to be perfectly content with 5-10 watts) are now cranking it up with systems that have 400-600 watts of audio?

And that, gentlemen, is sound confined in a space about twice as large as your refrigerator!!! Where the speakers are no more that 6 feet from your ears!!!

Now, tell me again...that bullhockey about "power has nothing to do with tone". (LOL!)

Gentlemen, when you're talking clean sounds (and that's what I'm talking about), when you're talking about real thump-you-in-the-chest bass response, the power's got to be there!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 November 2006 at 08:59 AM.]

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 20 Nov 2006 9:28 am

Hello David....thanks for your reply. I would have to agree with you that guitar amplifiers have been around a long time and each one has been pretty much perfected to do a particular job. No one amp seems to do it all.

The Fender Twin had the sound I liked and I was used to hearing it time after time, so there was no need for me to change to another brand. So I suppose I am biased.

However, when an amp was miked, you could play at a lower volume and didn't have to worry about distortion by accident.
I have plugged my steel, and guitar, into a mixer directly and got a real nice sound that way using its effects and a separate crossover sent to speaker units, but it was a lot more work tweaking, as you say ....and therefore not really practical for live performances.

I've done a small amount of recording in a studio and I plugged directly into a big console and heard my steel back thru good headphones. I had to have the engineer adjust the sound the way I wanted to hear it, including some reverb.
The hardest part for him seemed to be my volumn pedal movement as it wasn't a near constant volume that he would have liked for his meters.

However, when I got done playing and the playback was running, what a nice clear sound that was. Like listening to a good CD.
At the moment, I don't have an amp at home to use to experiment with as you suggested.....but I will soon.

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1971 Emmons D-10 8/7 #1568 D, Rosewood

Randall Miller · Post by **Randall Miller** » 20 Nov 2006 10:49 am

Donny said..."Gentlemen, when you're talking clean sounds (and that's what I'm talking about), when you're talking about real thump-you-in-the-chest bass response, the power's got to be there".
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When I had my PA system, I had four 18" speakers in 4 Theil design cabinets for just Bass. I used Crown amps and a Crown 3 way crossover for connecting the four cabinets with 15" speakers for midrange, and then onto two horn cabinets, and all was very well. (Plus 4-12" speaker cabs w/tweeters for stage monitors)

My amplifier settings never went over 1/4 to 1/2 way, as far as the volume controls because I had a 'lot of air' moving at once and didn't need it.
So I will agree and say that to get the speaker cones moving so the sound waves travel enough to get that "thump you in the chest feeling"....you have to have some power to do that.

However, if you add more speakers, then less power is needed to get the same effect and thus a cleaner sound. A person can actually listen to a louder system, but it won't irritate their ears if it is 'clean sounding'.

So getting back to the small 15 watt amps, I think they probably would work fine in a studio setting and miked into a consol.
But playing a live gig.....I believe they would run into a distortion problem playing steel through them, because of the range of the instrument.

If your playing outdoors at the county fairgrounds, then sound dies pretty quickly as there are no walls for reflection, and so a bigger amp/cabs or 2 may be needed.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 20 Nov 2006 12:42 pm

To make a Deluxe clean enough for an unmiked bar gig of average size is possible, but it changes the amp from its original purpose, so why not just get the right amp for the job? You can grind and file a phillips screwdriver to use as a flatblade, but why not just get the right tool for the job? Any amp would work for steel if you mess with it enough, but there are so many really decent steel amps, why bother? JP

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Nov 2006 5:25 pm

Jim - Because a Deluxe dialed-in for steel has a particular tone some people like....just as I like my 1x15 Vibroverb, which isn't designed as a steel amp.

Sometimes you can't get the sound you're looking for with the average amp - and sometimes you are trying to create your own signature tone.

As long as you're not hacking vintage amps, there's no reason NOT to try it - it's something that's reversible in 30 minutes, so why NOT try it? It won't sound like a Peavey...and that's good to some ears.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 20 Nov 2006 6:15 pm

JS, I don't disagree with what you're saying. Since I play mostly guitar, I have my SF Deluxe set up for that. The 2 channel mod,and a mid grade speaker that breaks up nicely with a full low end. It is awful for clean steel at anything but a whisper. My NV 112 sounds great to me for steel, but is not in the same league as my Deluxe for guitar. Changing either amp to work double duty only compromises its original purpose. If you do it effectively, cool-it just doesn't work for me. JP

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Nov 2006 8:56 pm

"Changing either amp to work double duty only compromises its original purpose"

That's where the confusion lies.

I agree with you - double-duty makes one or both awful.

I have a '76 and a '73 DR. The 76 has 6L6's, a 5751 in the V2 slot, biased cold (I don't recall the exact ma), a Weber California - and is JUST for steel. I don't actually play clean steel like most, but I wanted to try it this way, and it works great. sucks as a guitar amp, though - unless you plug in an ES175 or something.

The '73 is stock - a guitar amp with early breakup.

Make sense?

Klaus Caprani · Post by **Klaus Caprani** » 21 Nov 2006 1:52 am

I play E9 on an early silverface Deluxe Reverb and like it a lot. I would have my doubts though, if it could really cut the mustard with the bass of a C6 neck.

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Klaus Caprani

MCI RangeXpander S-10 3x4
www.klauscaprani.com

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 21 Nov 2006 6:28 am

I'm curious if the various posters who use or discuss having tried various Fender tube amps with steel run them with the Bright switch on or off? My guess would be off, because the big high end emphasis that the Bright results in wouldn't result in what I would call a "warm" tone. I mention this because, in comparing a stock Deluxe Reverb to a Twin Reverb, one significant difference in the circuit design is that in the Deluxe the "Bright" function is unswitchable. Though it's not as dramatic, because of a smaller value cap, it's always on--and comes into play the most when the volume is set low enough to avoid distortion, as most pedal steelers are usually trying to do. This would contribute to the difference between a Twin set clean with Bright off and a Deluxe set clean.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Nov 2006 7:03 am

Brint - I set them off. But the DR is voiced a bit more towards the midrange than a Twin, so even though it's essentially hardwired "on" it's not as trebly. You can also alter that via tubs, bias and speaker, or minor circuit alterations.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 21 Nov 2006 7:14 am

Brint, I usually have the bright on, but will turn ot off sometimes to compensate for changes in the room, or changes in where I have to put the amp. The bright switch has a more profound effect with some tone settings than with others, but I wouldn't say that turning it on necessarily eliminates any "warmth". If you have the treble and mids down, you can still get tons of "warmth" with it switched on.

I always set the amp to where I feel the tone is good and solid. "Cutting through" the other instruments on the bandstand by using a thin tone has never been big on my agenda.