M/F/X unit 4 Dobro Sims

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Anyone care to share some tips? I am using a Boss SX700 with the usual complement of FX and EQ and completely configurable fx chain.

Seems I should be able to achieve a reasonable dobro sim, but so far, not so hot. Any help appreciated.

I should add that while I will probably be using it some with steel, the principal instrument is an original CatCan 6 string in standard reso G tuning.

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 09 August 2006 at 08:26 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I find that the best reso sound is achieved with NO effects whatsoever. Just the raw tone.

David Spires · From: Millersport, OH

I am not familar with your fx processor, but here is what I do for steel...

I use either the Goodrich MatchBro, or the BoBro as the majority of the resonator simulation. From there, I go to my Pod XT Pro (or occassionally Pod XT), and use the acoustic amplifier model, a doubling sort of delay (30ms or so) to fatten the sound, and I use a room reverb instead of a chamber, hall, or plate that I may use for steel.

This works well for me, but again the majority of the "work" is being done with the simulator. I would even try one with your CatCan.

Good luck,

David Spires

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Steel Guitarist for Jo Dee Messina: Carter D-10 8&7 / MSA Classic D-10 8&5; Line 6 Pod XT; Jagwire Artist Series Strings; Walker Professional Players' Chair; Peterson VS-II Tuner; Goodrich Matchbro & LDR Pedal; and BJS Bars

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks for your response fellows, but perhaps further explanation is necessary. I was hoping to achieve similar results available with the Match Bro, et al sims, by tweaking and programming existing fx and eq in the processor that I already have.

The offboard simulators do sound great but are not an option for me at this time.

The CatCan is a nice little axe, but it really doesn't sound very much like a reso.

I thought perhaps some of you guys had been able to achieve a reasonable approximation through your fx processors. Thanks JO.

[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 09 August 2006 at 09:48 PM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

I've played around with graphic EQ's, effects units and nothing comes close to the Goodrich MatchBro's for realistic dobro simulation.

I hear people talk about the dobro simulation in the Profex II and that's one of the worst ones I've heard.

Bob Hempker · From: Goodlettsville, TN.

I use a Matchbro with the "Dumplinbro" program in the profex II. It is a good dobro sound. I just ordered one of Bobbe Seymour's BoBros. I haven't gotten it yet. I don't know why, but it seems like just running through the Matchbro puts a glassy, screechiness to my highs, and filters out the mids and lows. That is when it's in the "off" position, and I'm just using a steel guitar tone. I like the dobro sound, but I can't deal with the unit screwing up my steel tone just running through it. That is why I'm going to try one of Bobbe's units.

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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Maybe it's because I've played bluegrass dobro for years, but none of the simulators sound right to me. I think it's due to the tuning, which dictates a "non-dobro" style of playing. You can't get the same rolls nor the hammer/pulloff combos - all I hear are the "Hawaiian" dobro licks, which seem to work OK...but something is still tonally "off", and you're not going to rip off any Jerry ouglas, Sally van Meter or Rob Ickes stuff trying to use a steel as a Dobro. Brother Oswald Kirby style is about as far as I hear anyone get.

A Dobro with a pickup or mic system is what I stick with.

Mark Eaton · Posted 14 Aug 2006 1:37 am

I'm with you Jim - I haven't heard one of these things yet that really sounds like a dobro.

Gigging Forumites have wrtten that they like to have these simulators because there may be two songs a night where a dobro sound is called for. My answer to that is that if you never made the attempt to begin with, I would find it very unlikely that anyone in the audience is going to "call you on the carpet for it" anyway.

And if you are not a gigging steeler- you just like to play in the living room or jam with friends-I can't imagine for the life of me why you would invest in one of the things when you could be playing an actual dobro.

I would be more likely to call you on the carpet for using one of the cheesier sounding units to attempt to imitate a dobro!

They all sound kind of thin to me.

I'm thinking that most steel players that use them have very little interest in the dobro, and are willing to settle for a simulated version that is in the ballpark, and that's about as far as their interest goes.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 14 August 2006 at 02:40 AM.]

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

Not "everyone" sounds bad on a dobro simulator. I've fooled Bluegrass pickers with my MatchBro. Paul Franklin, Sr, likes my "dobro" picking and also told me he's heard several "big name" steelers that sounded "terrible" with a Matchbro.

The key is you have to think "dobro" and dobro licks when you are picking - not just use the dobro simulator as an "effect" and play the steel like you normally do. Also, lose the delay and reverb.

But, I do agree, like anything, the real thing is the best.

Frank Parish · From: Nashville,Tn. USA

I tried two different Matchbros and I've had a Catcan since 87 but never cared for any of them. The Pro-Fex II has a sort of dobro sound but that didn't get it either. I bought an old OMI and learned to play it on the country stuff and that's where the sound is. All them things may sound OK until you pick on the strings of the real deal. In the long run, it's cheaper and sounds better.

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

As first stated, the principal instrument involved is a Marr's 6 string CatCan RGS. Exactly the same tuning as a 6 string dobro. Same string gauges, no difference in feel or technique.

I owned and played a dobro for 20 years so I know my way around one.
I was forced to sell it a while back due to financial distress.
I plan to buy another one when economics allow. I also plan to latch on to a Matchbro or Bobro when times are better. Meahwhile...
I wouldn't sound or play like JD, RI, RK et al. even if I owned the highest end reso.

I've heard plenty of convincing sounds come out of simulators. Example: Gary Morse with the CatCan and Matchbro and more recently, the new CatCan with the built in effect. If you couldn't see the instrument, I doubt you could make a distinction between that an acoustic reso. If you think that sound is cheesy...well.

I just thought that a passable reso tone, ala the Matchbro, Bobro, etc. could be achieved through proper programming and use of eq shaping and fx such as flange/phase/etc [Thanks to the forumite that e'd me the graphic eq curve.] and that some of you have had reasonable success.
Looks like lots of experimentation on my part is called for. But I believe it is achievable.

If you've ever tried to mic up an acoustic reso on stage with drums and electric instruments, then you would know the hassles involved with monitoring/feedback, etc. and why a reasonable approximation is entirely acceptable for 2 or 3 tunes.

If I go out and play with a bona fide acoustic band all night, the real thing is what I use, even if I have to rent or borrow one.

Mark Eaton · Posted 14 Aug 2006 7:27 am

"and why a reasonable approximation is entirely acceptable for 2 or 3 tunes."...similar to my post-but I think it might be more work to try to get one all dialed in than it is just to play straight steel on those tunes-and as alluded to earlier-I think the audience probably could care less.

I know of the hassles. Now we are using an in ear monitor system, so there are no issues anymore with monitor feedback. I combine a Shure SM-57 mike with a Fishman Platinum PRO EQ preamp for the dobro and have zero problems. But if you were only going to play 2 songs that would benefit from a dobro sound, I can see where someone wouldn't want to be bothered with this.

I have no doubt, like everything else in the world, that some folks are a lot better than others at achieving pretty good results with the simulators. But I have heard some of the simulators, where the player says "check this out" and they just don't sound very good-and I think it is due to the fact that the player just isn't really into dobros. I have met a number of steelers, not major pros, that have told me that they don't own a dobro, and a couple have said that they have literally never played one. They just don't have the frame of reference in their head for what a well-played dobro is supposed to sound like a la Douglas, Ickes, or Auldridge. It's sort of like the average American guy that likes football or baseball-he doesn't understand why the rest of the world is so into soccer-and doesn't have the appreciation for it.

Gary Morse is a great steeler that is also a killer dobro player (he usually plays a 7-string Beard). He knows what a dobro is supposed to sound like to get the full potential out of the instrument. So it would make sense that he is going to try to figure out what it takes to get more accuracy on his simulator setup.

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Mark

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 14 August 2006 at 08:35 AM.]

[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 14 August 2006 at 01:19 PM.]

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Still looking for input from those that have built dobro sims from fx processors.

Bob Hempker · From: Goodlettsville, TN.

I'm not much of a dobro player,nor have I ever claimed to be. I'm not a bluegrass player. I have the utmost respect for good bluegrass players, but I don't have any desire to play it myself. The sounds I use a simulator on are mostly simple things just to appease whoever I'm working for. I am a steel player, first, and if someone wants dobro fills on a song, I try to please them with a simulator first. If they are just adamant about a "real dobro," well then I'll go that route. I just don't like having to fool with another instrument. You know; the amplifying it, having to tune another instrument, worrying about someone stealing it, or something happening to it. For simple dobro fills, especially on a ballad, the simulator usually will do the trick. Again, I'm not a dobro player, nor a bluegasser. There's not a thing wrong with that, but it just isn't who I am. I'm just trying to grind out a living with a steel guitar. I don't have the time I'd like to practice it, let alone take up another instrument. That being said, I use a matchbro, and have a BoBro ordered.

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Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks, Bob. Your professional input is welcomed and appreciated.

James Sission · From: Sugar Land,Texas USA

Jerry.....I use a program on my tubefex that works pretty well...Since I am normally just playing in a bar and not for a room full of professional dobro players, all I need is to satisfy myself and the bandleader. I am not sure how you program your FX unit, but, Jack Stoner has a link in his profile to a page that has all kinds of programs for peavey stuff. I actually use the dobro simulator that he shared in those settings in his profile. You might look at the 2 programs he has on that site and see if one of them, or a combination thereof, might work on your FX unit.......James

Jerry Overstreet · From: Louisville Ky

Thanks James. Yes, I have visited the site and "stolen" some of Jack's paramater settings that are comparable to my Boss unit. I just looking to tweak the patch for a better sound.

Perhaps the query should have read "How to build Matchbro/Bobro sounds from a Multi-fx processor?"

I just thought "sims" would cover the gamut, including the Profex patch that you refer to. Thanks again for your response and to all who have taken the time to read and comment.

Mark Eaton · Posted 14 Aug 2006 9:42 am

OK, jeez...SORRY I chimed in on this thread, and have nothing technical to offer.

But it does jog my mind with one question: Most pedal steelers will go to any and all lengths to achieve the holy grail in tone-and unless thay are at a steel show, chances are very few if any fellow steel players are going to be in the audience-so there won't be a room full of professional steel players for which they are playing, just like the bar gig where there isn't "a room full of professional dobro players"

So if one realizes that the simulator they are using doesn't sound real accurate-but in the steel players mind it is acceptable-doesn't that just relegate the dobro to "red-headed stepchild" status?

Also, dobro is used on an awful lot of country tunes (and I would imagine that this is why a bandleader would like to hear it on a couple of tunes in a set at a country gig). So not being into bluegrass doesn't make it any more valid to accept a mediocre imitation of the instrument.

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Mark

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

A correction to James' post. The "dobro" Transtube Fex/Tube Fex program I have on my web site is NOT a dobro simulator program. It is ONLY an preamp/EQ program that I used with my MatchBro.

I do have the Jeff Newman Profex II program listing and there is some dobro simulator programs in the listing. But, as I noted earlier they don't come close my Goodrich MatchBro (I have one of the original models that has a matchbox/tone control built into the bypass mode).

My web site: www.gulfcoaststeelguitar.com

FWIW here is a live recording I did using the Matchbro. The singer is Bill Box who was the guitar picker and singer for Bill Monroe in the 73/74 timeframe. http://www.gulfcoaststeelguitar.com/Bill_Box.mp3

James Sission · From: Sugar Land,Texas USA

Actually Jack, I got this off your page:

113 – DOBRO ?: 3B+CF+DL+RV+EF

3B= Ty=Guitar, Lo=+35, MFrq=750Hz, Mid=-40, Hi=+20
Output Level (+)= 39

CF= Rt=0.7hz, Dp=26%, Dl=4.6ms, Fl=+16 Mx=+100
Output Level (+) = 10

DL= Ty=Stereo, Ld=361ms, Lf=29%, Rd=361ms, Rf=29%, Ts=Off, Mx=+100
Output Level (+) = 10

RV= Ty=Spring, Sz=Large, Pd=30ms, Tm=2.9s, Dp=Off, Mx=100%
Output Level (+) = 10

EF= Sn=+0, Fq=51, Rx=83, Ty=LP-SLO, Mx=100%
Output Level = 100

With a Stevens bar, it sounds enough like a dobro to me to get by with what I do. Of course what I do is NOT try to impress other players that might be in the house, I just play for fun...Maybe that's where I differ from most on here, music is fun, not an obsession....James

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I just watched Tim Seargent sound check with Dierks Bentley with a Fluger/Marrs catcan stand up dobro at a large outdoor venue. Absolutely sounded acoustic through the mains.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

James, that is the Jeff Newman Profex II program.

James Sission · From: Sugar Land,Texas USA

Yes Jack, I know...I got it off your site..And with some tweeking and a little work, it sounds pretty good on a tubefex...That was my only point to Jerry...Go get the basic program and then build it to his satisfaction. Your site is great Jack, thanks......James

Bob Hempker · From: Goodlettsville, TN.

I can't see any difference from a steel player using a dobro simulator, than a leslie effect,or any other effect. What about keyboard players with string samples or horn patches? Again, I'm not a dobro player. I own one. If someone wants one on a recording, I use the dobro, or better yet, I have a friend in town who is an awesome dobro player. I'll talk them into hiring him for the dobro parts. I don't think this degrades the instrument. Anyone who has a musical ear can usually distinguish any electronic imitation from the "real thing." Steel players have been hurting the last several years due to utility players, who are not bona-fide steel players, getting gigs over a steel player, just because they can "get by" on a couple of tunes on steel. What is that relegating the steel guitar to? I only use the simulator on background fills and such. By the time it gets into the house, the sound tech has had a chance to put his little personal touches to it. Depending on the sound tech, a real dobro may not sound like it should,either. Again, I'm just trying my damndest to grind out a living playing steel guitar. I started playing when I was 14 years old. I've been playing professionally since I was about 16. I'll be 58 next month, so I think I've been fairly successful at it. I'm looking forward to getting my Bobro. It should be here by Friday. I'll try it, and let you know my honest thoughts about it, unless my opinions are not respected because I'm not a "real dobro player."

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[This message was edited by Bob Hempker on 17 August 2006 at 09:33 AM.]

Mark Eaton · Posted 15 Aug 2006 9:24 am

OK, you win...

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Mark

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