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Topic: Amp mic question |
Phil ONeill
From:
Balbriggan, Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 21 Jul 2006 1:37 pm |
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I need to buy a mic for my steel amp.Nothing fancy.. just something to spill
into to PA a little.I have narrowed it down to a Sennheiser 609 because it
will hang on the lead in front of the speaker and I like the simplicity of this.
I have also considered a Shure SM57 but this will need a small stand or clamp.
This puts me off a little on the Shure.They are both similar in price range.
I would appreciate some advice on this please.
Thanks,
Phil
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Nick Holden
From:
North Dakota, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2006 1:58 pm
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| Phil, I have used both on my amps, but as you said the 609 is alot easier to use. Our sound man said he liked the 609 better also. Their both great mics but I like the 609. |
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Twayn Williams
From:
Portland, OR
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Posted 21 Jul 2006 6:03 pm
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Amp micing is an absolute art. No matter what mic you end up with, you can't just throw it in front of the speaker and expect to immediately get a good sound most of the time. Position tweaks of even a 1/4" can make all the diffence between a beautiful full sound and a sound that'll rip your head off, or conversely sounds like dull mud.
That being said, you might also look into using a Behringer Ultra-G DI. $30 for one of the best cabinet emulation sounds I've heard. If you've got an extra speaker out jack on your amp you can just hook it up there and use the pad switches to keep it from overloading. Not as good as a well positioned mic in a good sounding room, but quick, easy and consistant every time. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 21 Jul 2006 6:54 pm
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I use a Shure SM-57 on all of the sound samples and songs on my web site sound samples for steel guitar (Fender Steel King) and lead guitar (Fender Hot Rod deluxe). The web page above details the recording process a little more. Placement is 3" from the grill cloth and pointed right at the speaker center cone and on axis with it. The SM-57 is good in that has a very tight pattern that rejects unwanted sounds and the fidelity is incredible. I use a Behringer condenser mic on accoustic guitar and it works much better than the Shure there. Placement does affect the sound a lot but I found a lot of good placements that gave me more or less treble or bass if I wanted it.
The mixer I feed my mic into is the same as any of the mixing consoles your likely to see so you should get similar results.
Greg [This message was edited by Greg Cutshaw on 22 July 2006 at 07:45 AM.] |
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Phil ONeill
From:
Balbriggan, Dublin, Ireland
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 5:33 am
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Nick Twayne and Greg,
This is the information I needed.
Many thanks for taking the time to post.
Phil
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 5:38 am
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| I gather from your desription, Phil, that the 609 is a side-address mic? I'm ignorant on the subject. |
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Mike Fried
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 10:28 am
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I favor the e609 if using my own mic as it doesn't require a stand, as was pointed out. It also has a tighter pickup pattern than the SM57 and more of a presence boost.
Jon, it is a lightweight flat-sided side-address mic that can hang flat against the grillcoth when dangled from a cable run over the top of the amp. I've never met a soundman who's used one that doesn't prefer it to the 57 for steel. |
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Marlin Smoot
From:
Kansas
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 12:01 pm
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The E609; currently selling in Musicians Friend for $109 and a list price of $199.
I like the fact you don't need a stand or clip. Designed to hang in front of the grill... |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 1:21 pm
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The SM-57 I bought within the last 6 months at MF works fantastic and is certainly not any cheaper than the 57's I've owned years ago. I just checked out the reviews on the e609 and it looks like a great mic also. Looks like I just found another great mic to use, the e609. Either mic is a fine choice. I intend to get a 609 and use it as my second mic so I don't have to swap the SM57 between amps.
Greg[This message was edited by Greg Cutshaw on 24 July 2006 at 05:06 AM.] |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 23 Jul 2006 1:33 pm
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| By coincidence I'm just home from a show where a mic exactly as this 609 is described was hung on my Steel King. I could have gone direct from the FSK but I have had nothing but bad experiences doing that (in general) so it's not my first choice. Unfortunately it slipped my mind until right here & now to wonder if the mic was in fact the 609. I'd bet it was. Far as I know, I sounded ok out front. |
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John Daugherty
From:
Rolla, Missouri, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 12:37 pm
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Jon, some so called sound men will connect the line-out from the amp to a mixer input that contains a mic preamp. This will over drive the mixer.
Make sure to connect the line-out from the amp to a line-level input on the mixer. I have connected my NV112 this way a number of times and it sounds good after adjusting the EQ of the mixer.
If your equipment doesn't sound good through the sound system, it is usually caused by an "operator malfunction".
------------------
www.home.earthlink.net/~johnd37
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 1:19 pm
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If you have a REALLY top-notch mic, why is placement so critical; especially 1/4"?
I've recorded many times with just a mike in front of an amp. Basically placing it about 4-6 inches away from the center of the grill. The recording equipment was excellent. It all sounded pretty good to me.
Maybe I'm just not that picayune. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 1:46 pm
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| John D--thanks for that info. I have so little experience going direct. That's more than I knew. My issues, though, are more about the amount of detail that direct hookup captures but that more ambient mic'ing smooths out some---pick noise, etc. Of course if I were a better player then this would be moot. And I expect/intend that the day will come but until then I'll take any help I can get to reduce the fidelity. (Fidelity=Truth---we don't need no stinkin' truth). |
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Mike Fried
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 4:08 pm
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| Chip, recording a steel amp and mic'ing it live are two different animals because you want to mic a bandstand amp as closely as possible to avoid leakage from the drums, other amps, etc. The closer you place a mic to the speaker, the more critical its placement becomes, especially on large 15" speakers (think "microscope" effect). |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 6:45 pm
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I cannot honestly imagine hanging a mic - side address or not - randomly over the side of an amp and having it sound decent. As stated previously, mic placement is an art (I did sound support for many years, and have a son who is a professinal recording engineer - not a closet "recordist", but an engineer employed in a large studio.
It takes quite some time to find proper angles, distance, and what part of the cone you want to "point" at. Each speaker is different, even same models. ha hanging-types are usually preferred for one reason only - they're easier to use as long as you don't want to worry about good tone. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 24 Jul 2006 7:04 pm
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I just got a sennheiser e609 myself for live gigs and it works fine. I just hang if in front of the speaker to the side a bit so its not right in front of the cap. I'll bring it along next session I get and try it there.
------------------
Bob
upcoming gigs
My Website
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Chip Fossa
From:
Monson, MA, USA (deceased)
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 1:08 am
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Mike F.,
I agree with you about the bandstand situation.
My response was more along the lines of just recording oneself into a tape recorder; and then adding more instruments, vocals etc. after the fact.
I have a mint-condition TEAC 4-track A3340S
and have recorded just my steel going in direct in 1 channel and mikeing in another channel.
I suppose I could use all 4 channels, too.
But with just the 2 channels, God - sounds pretty good to me. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 4:10 am
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I just ordered an e609 so after it arrives I will post a song recorded with it. The near field of the speaker is pretty complex and if you put your ear a few inches from the speaker grill you will hear a sound completely different from what you hear only 10' away or what the crowd hears 30' away. I have had great luck with the SM-57 straight on the center cone and 4" or so from the grill. It's actually extremely simple to find a good placement. I just put on the headphones to monitor the mic feed, moved the mic around and observed all the wildy different tones you get from changing the mic position and direction. No way do you have to have a lot of experience or great technical abilitiy to do this. I even recorded a few tunes with the studio monitors on so the mic was getting the steel amp sound and the nearby monitors at the same time. Very much like a live sound but in my living room.
Thanks for all the tips on the e609.
Greg |
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Andy Zynda
From:
Wisconsin
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 4:46 am
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I've used both. The 57 sounds just a bit better to me, but the 609 WORKS better on stage, and is easier to position.
I use the 609 onstage. Any chance to reduce "hassle" is a good thing.
-andy- |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 4:49 am
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Greg - you're right, it's quick and easy to get a *good* sound.
What takes a lot of technical training is to get a "good" sound that also sits up in the mix. That's the tricky part, because what sounds "good" through headphones listening to the instrument by itself is usually a tone miles away from what works in a studio or stage mix. For home recording the "good" sound you hear is usally fine - not so for professional recordings, though. That's why it can take an engineer half a day to get drum miking set up for band sessions (as opposed to sessions with known players where records are kept).[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 25 July 2006 at 12:59 PM.] |
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Mike Fried
From:
Nashville, TN, USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 2:29 pm
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| Jim, other than its angle and distance from the grillcloth, you can place a mic on a speaker every bit as critically by hanging it as you can by putting it on a stand, and it's less likely to be knocked out of position. It merely takes the ability to hold it in place once it's positioned (the amp handle and/or gaff tape). In a live situation, especially when wanting to set up quickly and repeatably, having a good mic already in position out of the roadcase trumps every other consideration for me (and the stage manager or sound guy). I leave mine on a short mic cord run through the handle and gaff taped down, and it's good to go in about three seconds after it's uncased. |
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Jeff Peterson
From:
Nashville, TN USA
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Posted 25 Jul 2006 2:53 pm
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| If you like the e609, and have just a little bit extra in the change purse,maybe $50,..I highly recommend the e906..it takes the extra SPL and percussive attack that much better. Just a great low-priced mic....under $200. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 26 Jul 2006 9:59 am
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The best way to go,bar none,to get your steel amp into the P.A. is thru the pre-amp out on the back of your amp - not an outboard D.I. mind you because that can sound sterile,but the XLR output on the back of your amp.I've done it every kinda way over the decades and the best sound out front I've achieved was a Session 400 or Fender Steel King hooked up that way.No mic,mic stand,duct tape,mic positioning debates,etc. You get the sound of your pre-amp - all the EQ,reverb,gain structure,etc handed to the soundman on a silver platter. The only problem I ever had was once a soundman got a ground buzz with my Session 400,didn't have time during a three act soundcheck to track it down and had to use a mic.Fender Steel Kings have a ground lift on their Pre out as well as an output trim so they're an excellent amp for this task.No matter how you do it the soundman must know his business or you're in deep doo-doo anyhow. BTW,I recorded Joaquin Murphy's CD "Murph" that way w/a Session 400 Pre out direct to tape,so that's a real good way to record as well.
-MJ- |
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Ben Slaughter
From:
Madera, California
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Posted 26 Jul 2006 1:47 pm
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FWIW, I hang a 57 off the front of the amp all the time (no stand). Pretty common practice, although if I have a choice (and time to set up) I'd rather point it about 30 degrees off axis about 2" off the cone.
I also have a 609 on order, and am curious to hear the differences. |
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Greg Cutshaw
From:
Corry, PA, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2006 10:39 am
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I received my e609 a few days ago and it is absolutely great. I recorded my 6 string guitar into an RV-5, Keeley compressor then a Hot Rod Deluxe. Mic placement same as I use on my SM-57. Can't say which mic is better, the e609 or the SM57, they both capture crystal clear high fidelity sound. I did notice that the mic adapter/holder that comes with the e609 has a very small threaded fitting on it that is too small to fit to fit any on my mic stands.
Greg |
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