Doo-wah effect

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 23 Oct 2004 7:46 am

I intend to create a doo-wah effect to be enacted with a heavy duty, steel shafted, steel plunger foot switch, momentary on-on. I don't have a tone knob handy that I can wrap my pinky around.

I've been told by my best local electronics supplier that these types of switches have recently gone obsolete.

Does anyone know of a source, or does anyone have a different idea for the doo-wah effect.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 23 Oct 2004 8:28 am

I've heard there is increasing interest in the only recently discovered "Wha-Doo" affect. I think that's why the "Doo-Wha" affect faded into oblivion rather quickly. Personally, I wouldn't devote any lengthy period of time to that particular project. It's been done before and thus, is no longer "new".[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 23 October 2004 at 09:29 AM.]

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 23 Oct 2004 8:53 am

Ray - I've always condiered the "Wha-Doo" to be an advanced level technique. I humbly submit that I will have to pay my dues at "Doo-Wah" manipulations prior to stepping up to the next level.

But seriously, I realize this is an old technique, but I find I am listening almost exclusively to Lee Jeffriess on steel with Big Sandy and his Fly-Rite Boys, as well as Don Herron with BR549, and Chris Scruggs on his personal project. I believe I can deal with the "chatter", or "static" effect using a momentary on-off stomp switch, which is readily available. However, the "Doo-Wah" that I am hearing does not seem to be a sweeping tone change, but rather a quick movement from one tone to the other, leading me to believe that a tone pot is not being used, and instead there is a switch to quickly change from one tone circuit to another. Or do these guys whip that tone pot rapidly from on to off with their pinkies?[This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 23 October 2004 at 10:34 AM.]

Don Joslin · Post by **Don Joslin** » 23 Oct 2004 10:15 am

Yep, they use their pinky's on a bar slam. Cindy Cashdollar does a great demo on her Western Swing Steel Guitar vids - it's on Vol. 1. I think that Speedy West was the first to do it. Lot's of no peddlers are using the technique. Cindy calls it the original wah-wah sound.

Don

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My favorite baseball team is the Minnesota Twins...
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Loni Specter · Post by **Loni Specter** » 23 Oct 2004 11:49 am

I believe there is a guitar effect pedal called am 'auto-wah' or 'whammy'. You can adust the parameter to deliver the amount of wah and speed. Check with Digiteck or Roland-Boss for these type of pedals.

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 23 Oct 2004 7:39 pm

It is completely possible to get a quick tone change with a potentiometer. Speedy West used it, Jerry Byrd used it, Noel Boggs used it. In fact, I can't think of anybody who used an "on off" button for anything other than for the "studder" effect.

I use a 1 meg pot with a .05 capacitor. The 1 meg pot gives you a short distance of travel from "OOO" to "AHH" (From 1 to about 3 on a numbered tone knob). I'm thinking of going to a 500K pot to achieve more of a "waterfall" sweep (in the spirit of Jerry Byrd on "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry", "Wahbash Blues", and "Steelin' The Blues").

The problem with an on and off button would be that you can't play your wah wah in tempo with the song, which would greatly effect your execution. It would be like when you play a chord half a step flat and slide up to the root chord, you could only do it at one speed. You would loose the emotion/groove of the performance.

Just my thoughts, CS

[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 23 October 2004 at 08:47 PM.]

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 24 Oct 2004 3:21 am

Roy Smeck used a knob that looked like a miniature frypan, aregular tone knob with a "handle" about 2" long so he could manipulate it better with his pinkie. Our guitar player has a 15 yr old Morley pedal that up and down is vol and left to right is tone. You might look for one. I don't know if they are available new so a hock shop is probably your best bet. CC

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 24 Oct 2004 8:16 am

Chris - thank you for your information. It appears to me that you are using linear taper potentiometers rather than audio taper, given the short amount of travel you described. Is that correct? In fact, I believe that you are looking for longer travel when you say you want a "waterfall" effect? To get that longer travel you may want to try an audio taper pot rather than changing resistive value.

In addition, you are the first one to indicate that a switch was used for the "studder" effect. Until now, I've been told that I must smash the bar down for that effect. However, I will take Don Joslin's advice, and get a copy of Cindy Cashdollar's video, just to learn that bar crash technique.

Loni - after Chris spoke of keeping the wah in tempo with the song, I see the folly of using a switch for the effect, and I also suspect that preadjusting an auto wah may be problematic.

c.c. - the Morley pedal sounds like a nice, operator controlled device. I'll keep an eye out for one.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 24 Oct 2004 11:25 am

Same topic but limited to "old time steel player responses only"........(Can I do that?)

Do you detect an increasing persistance by newer players, oh, say since the 1970's, to nearly always insist on not only rebuilding the steel guitar with arm rests, hand rests, etc., as well as "stomp box" type mechanical affects rather than doing it like it has always been done, not only by the original artist, but by those serious steel guitar wanna-be's that followed in their shadow?

Similar comments have included using GLUE to keep finger picks on; using four finger picks instead of using the thumb to roll the two or three bottom strings in a full chord while plucking the top strings with the two finger-picks; some kind of electronic gizmo to make TONE; virtually every imaginable device to "TAKE A SHORT-CUT" as opposed to learning how to properly use the picks, the bar, the tone control knob, the volume knob and last but not least, the creative mind to develop a listenable and desireable personal STYLE...

WHile most of us have spent a life time of being anxious and desirous of getting to play in a great musical group, the mere thought of having been self taught for three or four weeks (or months!) and actually expressing the shock that they haven't yet wrapped up that big gig, as yet, I find, a little disturbing. What's that about instant gratification.........or whatever?

Some of you that are interested in the Doo-Wah noises.....and find it difficult to understand just how it was actually/properly done by the likes of Speedy West.....you will have to familiarize yourself first, with the Bigsby Steel Guitars. Unlike the later Fenders, Rickenbachers, Gibsons, Nationals, etc., the Bigsby had a larger knob that was tapered in such a way it fit nicely into one's cupped right hand, the entire hand, and it was mounted on the right end plate of the guitar; not just an itsy bitsy knob on top of the guitar and mounted in between a volume knob and kneck selector toggle switch. Paul Bigsby put it where he did for a reason, shaped it the way he did for reason and it was taken advantage of by Speedy West and others for obvious reasons. Current placement of this tone control knob on most current guitars, required about as much musical sense as making a plastic radio for the family of the 1930-1940's.

[This message was edited by Ray Montee on 24 October 2004 at 12:33 PM.]

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 24 Oct 2004 2:01 pm

amen Skip. CC

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 24 Oct 2004 8:46 pm

CC, i've seen that Smeck Doowah you're talking about. The guitar was on eBay and i wondered what that knob's purpose was. This was a Harmony Roy Smeck model steel. Looked exactly like a student model Harmony, except it was black, had the doowah knob and said Roy Smeck on it.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 24 Oct 2004 9:02 pm

Fender used a 250K Audio-Pot for Volume and a 1MEG-Linear Pot w/.05cap. for Tone. You can lengthen the Tone-Taper a little by using a 250K Audio-Pot and a .033cap. for tone. In fact, I use (2)-250K Audio-Taper pots and a .024cap. Works perfect for me! I usually run the Tone set at 1/2-way.

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“Big John” Bechtel
(2)-Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Customs
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15”
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c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Oct 2004 2:09 am

Guess I have to start looking at ebay. I have an old Roy Smeck course from the 30s that show this guitar. The text refers to the knob as an organ effect. The course is in A7 E C# A G E C# and when he uses the knob his old 78s do sound a bit like an organ. The tone change is very very quick from bass to treble. He also used this elongated knob on his vol control for swelling effects. People wanted him to changfe to a 8 strg guitar. His answer was Why? All of the notes of the scale are there on the 6 strg. I never liked his playing. It seened to be he was more interested in burlesque on the instrument than playing pretty music. IMHO CC

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 25 Oct 2004 5:05 am

I love the old JB records where he used the WAH in just the right spots. Kayton Roberts is also a master at this (as well as many other techniques! By the way, he has my vote and nomination for SGHF 2005

!)

But, not matter how hard I try, I just can't get my pinky in the rhythm of picking and rolling the tone knob at just the right moment...and most of my guitars don't have the tone knob by the pinky anyway. Perhaps I just need someone to teach this technique to me "in person" ...maybe that would help, unless I'm just pinky challenged

I think I've got the bar slams 'down'...I put the volume up full, and slam the bar while simultaneously rolling the tone knob (but I'm not 'picking' here...the slam takes care of sounding the strings). It works great on songs like "Lover."

But for more 'control' of the WAH sound, I was hoping for a tone 'pedal'...similar to the volume foot pedal...I could line the two of them up, side by side.

But I tried a Cry-Baby Wah-Wah pedal at my local music store, and it didn't sound anything at all like the Wah-Wah sound a steel should make! It was a heavy metal rock sound.

Those "dual action" pedals are too rare and expensive. Plus, a couple of players have told me they don't work like you would imagine...the action isn't the same...that's why they didn't last...(but I wasn't around then, so I'm only repeating their opinions).

If all the volume pedal does is simply roll the volume on and off at the foot, isn't there a pedal that would simply do the same thing with the tone control? Nothing fancy...just rolling the tone from bright to mellow (treble-bass), for the times when one would desire that effect?

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Oct 2004 5:22 am

see what I said about the Morley above. Our lead guitar player uses a cry baby on rock songs. The public want lousy music all the better. The doowah sounds good on pretty songs if you don't over do it. CC

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 25 Oct 2004 7:43 am

Ray Montee, said it like it was.

I remember Jerry Byrd and I were about the same age in Ohio. We both used the big tone control with your pinkey finger wrapped around it.

Alvino Rey did a lot of that too, including the bar crashes, then boo wah with that tone control. His old recording of "Idaho" was one he did that on..

I did that a lot in 1938 and it was exciting in those days, and got very favorable response.

As Jeff, says, we used it a lot with songs like "Lover" real fast too.

I think all that stuff ought to be brought back by the big recording boys today, it would make the steel sound exciting and new again.

What goes around comes around....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 25 Oct 2004 8:25 am

Hey there C.C. Johnson, was that info' on your tuning TOP to bottom; OR, BOTTOM to top?

Elderly Music was offering a Bigsby vol/tone pedal awhile back consigned there by a local nabor of mine.........I think they were asking a mere $10,000. My pedal works great as a tone controller......for the old Speedy West stuff.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 25 Oct 2004 8:30 am

To offer an alternative opinion to Ray: For the 'Doo-wah' and the slower Jerry Byrd type of wah I use a (gasp) wah pedal, a V-Wah pedal from Boss/Roland. This pedal is extremely customizable, and you can create a wah that is very smooth, very similar in sound to the pinky technique. Plus, this thing has the most amazing extreme filter sounds for funk and sacred steel playing. I know it's a shortcut, but it works for me.

Of course, we could all learn to play like Joaquin Murphy, then we wouldn't need a bag of tricks to keep up with the guitar player

(just kidding guys)

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www.tyack.com

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 25 Oct 2004 4:31 pm

Skip, no gentleman would ever list a tuning starting at the bottom. People who do have no kouth. Being a JB fan I have more kouth than money. From the top Ray. BTW Jerry shares my feelings about Smeck burlesquing the instrument. He was a fine guitar, banjo, mandolin, tipple etc player but no wizard on steel. CC

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 Oct 2004 7:10 pm

Most of us have learned over the years that if you start at the top of any endevor the only way you can go is down! That's why people in the ‘know’ always start at the ‘bottom’ and work their way ‘up’

To sound not so critical! What I mean is: If I write my tuning horizontally, I write from Lo to Hi. (L to R) If I write in a column, I start with the Hi on top and the Lo on the bottom.
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“Big John” Bechtel
(2)-Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Customs
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15”
click here click here click here click here
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 26 October 2004 at 12:28 AM.]

Everett Cox · Post by **Everett Cox** » 25 Oct 2004 8:29 pm

Few people have a doo-wah or bar-crash better than what Forumite JODY CARVER displays on his HCOA reissue CD. Buy one and check out Caravan, Idaho, Limehouse Blues, and more. Harmonics that make you shiver, too. I believe he uses an Epiphone or Fender volume/tone pedal. Jody is pretty tied up right now with medical issues but maybe someone can still take care of CD sales - if there are still some remaining from the limited quantity he had made. --Everett

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 25 Oct 2004 10:37 pm

Ray,

I personally prefer the tone knob placement on top than on the side. Coming from a Byrd fan, I don't understand how one could play "Steelin' The Blues" or Byrd's arrangement of "Wahbash Wah" on a Bigsby with the tone knob all the way over on the side.

When you lay your hands down on the guitar, they naturally face inward, in the direction of travel of the Fender knobs. I like this because I don't have to move my whole arm to turn it, just my wrist and hand. With the Bigsby, not only do I have to completely remove my arm from the top of thew guitar, but I have to turn my hand upside down.

Not to say one way is better, but with the tone knob on the side, the only way to play those songs is with a volume/tone pedal, which I would rather not be depenant on (though I own and love my Bigsby, Fender, and DeArmond pedals). It's just another thing to break and have to restring half way through a song. Plus I feel I can play better with my hands than with my foot shaking left to right.

I don't think there is anything "little", "pesky" or "toylike" about Fender knobs. They seem pretty substantial to me. I completely agree about disliking "toys" and "tricks" like extra finger picks, armrests and E bows and stuff like that. But a Fender tone knob isn't any more toylike than a Bigsby knob, it's just in a different spot and shaped differently.

Just my thoughts,

Chris

P.S.

I believe Rickenbacker and Gibson put the tone controls on top of their guitars years before Bigsby ever built a musical instrument. Bigsbys aren't better than Fenders, and Fenders aren't better than Bigsby's.It's just a matter of personal preferance is all.[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 25 October 2004 at 11:41 PM.][This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 25 October 2004 at 11:42 PM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 25 Oct 2004 11:00 pm

Jeff,

I don't think the reason the volume/tone pedals didn't last had anything to do with their design. It was because western swing fell out of fashion, and horns left country music (and most music, for that part). Thus, steel guitars didn't need to immulate horns anymore. That's why the Stringmasters have the tone knob out of the way, behind the bridge. It just wasn't the style anymore.

Plus, pedal steel came along, and players had something brand new to work on, and the trusty old wah wah sounded dated. Now that "Slowly" is over 50 years old, audiences seem more impressed with an unheard of (to most of them) explosive crash bar, Speedy West inspired, "OOWAH!", or a whiny, trumpet like, three string "OOOWAH OOWAH", than the now familiar pedal cry of an E chord stretching into an A.

Chris[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 26 October 2004 at 12:01 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Oct 2004 11:31 pm

Al Marcus said :
[quote[I remember Jerry Byrd and I were about the same age in Ohio.[/quote]

Hey Al aren't you and Jerry STILL about the same age,
in Cedar Springs and Hawaii ?

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 October 2004 at 12:32 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 25 Oct 2004 11:37 pm

Jody Carver has a Fender Vol/Tone Pedal, but; he still uses the same pedal that he used on HCOA. An Epiphone Rocco. How do I know? The “Fender Bible” told me so!
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“Big John” Bechtel
(2)-Fender ’49–’50 T–8 Customs
Fender ’65 Reissue Twin-Reverb Custom™ 15”
click here click here click here click here
[This message was edited by John Bechtel on 26 October 2004 at 12:40 AM.]