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Topic: Bass + condenser mic = unhappiness |
Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
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Posted 28 Jan 2006 10:30 am |
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I'm in a bluegrass trio consisting of guitar, dobro, and bass. All 3 participants sing. We've performed exclusively with dynamic cardioid microphones, and monitors for years. Our experience with the dynamic microphones and monitors has been mixed.
Last night, we test drove a single large diaphragm omnidirectional condenser microphone in a local 100 seat club, without monitors.
The guitarist and dobroist felt very comfortable with the condenser microphone as far as instrument sound goes. All 3 of us were happy with the vocals. However, the bassist was unable to hear his instruments. He ran his electric solid-body bass through a preamp into the board, and his upright acoustic bass is picked up purely by the condenser microphone.
What can we do to help the bassist hear his instruments?[This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 02 February 2006 at 05:23 PM.] [This message was edited by Bryan Bradfield on 04 February 2006 at 07:48 AM.] |
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T. C. Furlong
From:
Lake County, Illinois, USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2006 1:03 pm
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First, are you sure that the microphone was an omnidirectional? In my experience, a cardiod pattern or even a wide cardiod pattern will work much better in this situation. Even without monitors. I have never been able to get an omni mic to work well in a live setting for anything but very close mic situations like a loud guitar amp speaker, a lav mic on a presenter, ambient mic inside of percussion, etc.
Second, depending on the position of the main PA speakers, the bass player will probably need a small amp or a monitor for his solid body electric bass and might need to "support" the acoustic sound of an upright bass.
TC |
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Scott Appleton
From:
Ashland, Oregon
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Posted 28 Jan 2006 5:23 pm
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Acoustic Image bass rig small very light and has the best bass responce i have ever heard
for bass fiddle or solid body.Just look at the
way they mic bluegrass bands on "Sound stage"
or any of the A.K. Union station shows. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 28 Jan 2006 5:26 pm
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I remember a few years back when the Del McCoury band was trying the old style approach where they all played around one mic. It was a large diaphragm cardioid condenser. Audio Technica I believe. Right away on that first tour they realized that the bass needed either its own mic or a DI if they wanted anyone to hear it. I can't remember if it was a DI or mic, but basically there was no good way to get enough of the bass without it having it's own channel. Omni mic's may not be the best either. They don't reject enough from the front. You can get hotter levels in the PA with a cardioid mic.
Brad |
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Dave Boothroyd
From:
Staffordshire Moorlands
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Posted 29 Jan 2006 3:06 am
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If you'd like to look up something called "Equal Loudness Contours", you'll see that in order to sound as loud to human ears which are not designed to hear Bass notes, an upright bass needs to generate over twice as much sound pressure as a guitar.
The fact is that it doesn't.
Your only options are either to provide extra sound reinforcement for the Bass, or set up so that the rest of the band are twice as far away from the Mic as the Bass is. That will work, but I can never imagine anyone in the band except the bass player thinking it is an acceptable approach.
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Cheers!
Dave
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Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
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Posted 29 Jan 2006 8:01 am
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T.C. - When you say "depending on the position of the main PA speakers", are you suggesting that the bassist should be trying to get his ears as close to the main speakers as possible?
Scott - does AKUS have a DVD that shows this bass set-up?
Brad - our bassist had his own channel during the trial. However, with a solid body bass, he certainly wasn't getting anything close to what we acoustic instrumentalists were getting off of our instruments. This condenser mic has switching for 3 different patterns. I'm quite sure we were set for the full omnidirectional pattern. Perhaps we need to switch it to a cardioid pattern, and integrate that with a bass amp/monitor?
Dave - The problem with moving the bassist that much closer to the mic for boosting the bass sound is that the bassist's voice is the loudest in the trio. So that will not work. Also, while I can't refute the "Equal Loudness Contours" statement, I believe the main dilemma is that the guitar and dobro put out more sound than the upright bass does on "our" side of the mic, and guitar and dobro CERTAINLY put out more acoustic sound than does a solid body bass. |
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T. C. Furlong
From:
Lake County, Illinois, USA
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Posted 29 Jan 2006 2:19 pm
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Bryan, What I mean is that if you are on a small stage that is flanked by two PA speakers, and since lower frequencies (like those found in the fundamentals of a bass) are not directional, everyone on stage may be able to hear the bass just fine from the speakers located at the side of the stage. If you were on a big stage with PA speakers way out front or off to the side, it would be less likely to be heard by anyone on stage. Still, the best way is usually to have the bass player use a small amp and a pick-up. I like to also use a mic on an upright in addition to a pick-up. The key with adding a mic to a bass in a single mic situation is to place it close so that it is used just to fill in the missing portion of the sound that the main mic is missing (i.e. low frequencies) Also, you need to make sure that the main mic and the bass mic are never picking up the same sound at similar levels. That way you will avoid destructive interaction (e.g. comb filtering and phasing)between the two mics.
TC |
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Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
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Posted 2 Feb 2006 6:05 am
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| How about what should be the obvious answer? The bass player uses his amp on the stage. There is no line out to the board, no separate bass channel, no mic on the amp. The single condenser microphone just picks up the bass amp sound along with the acoustic instruments and voices. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 2 Feb 2006 9:52 am
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| And Bryan takes home the donut! That is the solution that seems to work the most effectively with the better acts that I have supported. |
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Bryan Bradfield
From:
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.
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Posted 2 Feb 2006 11:50 am
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| Thank you Dave. You guys were just waiting for me to figure it out for myself, weren't you? |
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