Twin and Deluxe comparo

thurlon hopper · Post by **thurlon hopper** » 2 Nov 2005 10:14 am

While doing a side by side comparison of both amps, just wish the Deluxe had a bright switch to roll off the highs a bit. the Twin has very sweet highs with the bright switch off and this is using either the JBL E-130, or EVM 12L ext. speaker. Just wonder why the Deluxe never had the bright on-off switch. Works fine with the Tele or Les Paul, but too many highs for pedal steel. Do any of you use a seperate equalizer when you plug your steel in? TJH

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 2 Nov 2005 10:32 am

Thurlon, you just can't compare these two amps directly, the Deluxe only has 22 watts. The Twin has about 4 times as much power, and that additional power provides the added low-end that helps smooth out the highs. All the bright switch in the Twin does is to boost the highs by bypassing the volume circuit. In other words, having no bright switch is the same as having one, and it being in the "off" position.

You'll never get the fat tone out of a Deluxe that's available in a Twin, but an equalizer might help contour what little tone you have in the Deluxe. It's worth a try.[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 02 November 2005 at 10:34 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Nov 2005 11:39 am

The Twin Reverb was the top of the line, while the Deluxe Reverb was an intermediate-size, lower end amp. Fender cut some corners - no bright switch and no mid control, and obviously a lot less power and only 1-12" speaker.

With that said, the Deluxe Reverb is probably my favorite all-around guitar amp. With a little tweaking (I've been known to go in and tweak the tone stack and other things), it is incredibly versatile, lightweight, and great for a lot of guitar sounds. With a good EV or JBL speaker, it sounds fine for steel, to my ears, at low volume. Of course, it can't cut steel at a high volume - it just wasn't meant for that. A lot of guitar playing buddies ask me why I can't use it for steel in most gigs. They just don't get it.

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 2 Nov 2005 1:58 pm

The bright cap can be cut off on the Deluxe (the Twin does it with the switch). Another option is to add reverb/tremolo to channel 1, which does not have the bright cap. Did one last week and now have a two channel amp wiht effects on both, one channel bright and one normal tone. Easy mod, de-solder and move one wire!

Glad to email you the mod, just send me an email.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 2 Nov 2005 2:21 pm

The twin channel mod on the Deluxe is the absolute best thing you can do, if you play guitar in smaller clubs.Driving both channels hits the output stage harder at lower volumes. I compress one channel, giving me a normal attack and a great bloom in sustain. The compressor can not flip the phase or it won't work with the mod. I'e used my Deluxe for 10 yrs. like this, no problems. I used it for steel last weekend,low volume , nice tone, no headroom though. JP

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 2 Nov 2005 4:25 pm

I agree with Ken - reverb and tremelo on both channels and cutting the bright cap work nicely, my BF/SF amps have that. Another change I routinely do is replace the tremelo intensity pot with a pot with an push/pull on-off switch, wired to pull the tremelo completely out of the circuit (keeping the original parts, of course). This gives a few dB of additional gain late in the preamp circuit. Coupled with a slightly cold bias and a nice JBL or EV speaker in there, it gives a Deluxe Reverb enough clean juice to be respectable for steel in a fairly low-volume club gig.

Note that I probably wouldn't do much rewiring to a real clean BF amp these days - they're unbelievably expensive, and "collectors" like everything original, down to the solder joints. But I wouldn't hesitate to do this to a player-grade SF or BF version. I did my mods years ago when these amps were still cheap.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Nov 2005 5:25 am

By golly, Ken's right! The newer Deluxe amps do have a bright cap on channel one (that can be removed). Thanks for that info.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 3 Nov 2005 5:52 am

I have two DR's and a Twin and if the DR is too bright it's set up wrong. The cap mod is one thing, but it shouldn't be necessary.

First culprit is the speaker. If it's a Fender-labeled Utah or Oxford, it needs to go away. Check with Ted Weber at WeberVST for speakers....for steel the California with a paper dust cap will be clean without brittle highs.

Next, get rid of any and all Sovtek, Electroharmonix, Groove Tubes etc and load it with either NOS U.S. tubes or if you have to buy new ones, JJ's. Then make sure it's biased right - this is tricky. For a steel you want it clean, so you have to go a bit on the cold side, but go TOO cold and the highs rip your forehead off.

Also make sure, if it's a silverface or blackface Deluxe, that the filter caps have been replaced along with the bias cap. this is CRITICAL to both the sound and life of the amp.

You can alwayys find a good amp tech who can tweak a Deluxe any way you like. It's not brain surgery. A Deluxe should sound MUCH fatter than a Twin when it's set up properly, plus a Twin only opens up and sounds decent when cranked, making it impractical for anything but outside gigs or huge halls. I've worked on Deluxes and Twins for years - it's really no problem to get your Deluxe sounding fat, juicy and reasonably clean - it just takes the right tech to know the combinations of parts and settings to do it.

BTW - if it's one of the new "reissues" all bets are off. They sound nothing like a vintage Deluxe and are tough to service and mod. Avoid.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 03 November 2005 at 05:53 AM.][This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 03 November 2005 at 05:57 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 3 Nov 2005 6:00 am

I've got this '68 Deluxe Reverb that has for years been my #1 holy grail amp. It's got a JBL D120 which makes it way, way louder than a stock Deluxe. It's just so much louder with that JBL. I play a lot of gigs with both steel and guitar. On channel 1 of the Deluxe I bypassed the tonestack and put in a 12AU7. I use my new preamp for steel and then that feeds channel 1 of the Deluxe using the amp as a tube powered speaker and all my tone shaping comes from the preamp. Then I use the reverb channel for guitar. It works great as long as the stage volume isn't so loud that I run out of power. I've used this little Deluxe for steel on some pretty loud gigs. But it does run out of power pretty fast when things on stage are loud and bassy. The tone is the greatest I've ever had.

Brad

Rich Young · Post by **Rich Young** » 3 Nov 2005 9:26 am

What Jim said. GREAT guitar club and recording amp. I put a Weber alnico speaker in, great county tele sound. It is a little mid rangy for steel. Part of that is the 6V6's, too.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 4 Nov 2005 8:38 am

Is the EVM-12L a good candidate for steel through a Deluxe? (a friend has one for sale locally).
I have a Kendrick 12" (Green Basket) in there right now, and am also looking to roll off the ice-pick factor.

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 4 Nov 2005 9:20 am

I would choose the EVM-12L over a JBL for the Deluxe and the Twin Reverb. Listen to the guitar player for Dwight Yokum, that is his rig! I prefer the warmer tone and the feel of the air moving due to the deep basket of that speaker.

Be aware the baffle screws may not be long enough to accomidate a cast frame speaker. Requires a little bit of re-work!

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 4 Nov 2005 5:32 pm

Or.......you could just adjust the Treble control to remove some of the highs.

There are a lot of variables here to consider.

When you did your test, were both amps at the same volume? Or did you just set the knobs to the same numbers?

Did you run them through the same speaker(s) and/or cabinet?

Were you sitting close to them or far away?

Were you the one playing, or did you have someone else do it so you could focus on the sound and not your playing?

And don't forget, these amps are NOT the same circuit design. I'm willing to bet that neither one of these sounded all that bad.

------------------
Artie McEwan

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 7:29 am

"Or.......you could just adjust the Treble control to remove some of the highs."

That will NOT do the same thing as changing a speaker - all you'd be doing is sending less treble to a brittle speaker that will still sound harsh.

It's just not as simple as twisting a knob. IIf it were, there would be no need for so many different speaker models.

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 5 Nov 2005 8:54 am

As many of you (the same people that always participate in these BF/SFDR discussions) know, the tone stack in these amps is so very broad and interactive. Reduction of either bass or treble is going to shape the sound across a wide range of the spectrum. I added a mid control because it is so easy to do. But, ironically, it usually is set right about where the fixed resistor would have had it anyway (I am estimating by ear and by knob position) but it is still a useful tone shaping tool. In my config. with Weber Cali, JJ 6L6's and copper cap SS rectifier I find no issues with undo highs.
I, too, will call my DR the sweetest sounding steel amp in my absurdly broad arsenal. I wish I could find the same velvety smooth color in my Dual Showman Rev., a much harder sounding rig. But as my past posts have detailed, only in rooms/situations with the most modest volume requirements can this amp be used. Great sound but nothing in reserve (headroom-wise).

ajm · Post by **ajm** » 5 Nov 2005 9:04 am

"That will NOT do the same thing as changing a speaker ..."

True. But switching a bright switch won't either.

My post was really addressing the initial comparison between the amps as Thurlon started with them, and not the amps after all of the mods and swaps that were suggested.

I'll say it again: I'll bet that neither of these amps sounded so bad that any one of us would not give them a new home.

------------------
Artie McEwan

Brett Habben · Post by **Brett Habben** » 5 Nov 2005 9:11 am

Jon,
Have you tried slaving your DR? If so what success have you had?
Also, has anybody A/B'd a 4-6L6 cathode bias vs. a 4-6L6 fixed bias config?
Thanks,
Brett

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 5 Nov 2005 9:45 am

Although the answer is "no", could you elaborate, Brett? Not sure what you are suggesting or asking re: slaving. One thing for sure is that I am lazy and have no interest in hauling more than one rig--considering that 'arsenal' I refer to, lord knows I have an appropriate amp for any room/occasion, power-wise, and can't envision making my options an and/or list rather than just an either/or choice. Oh, my achin' back.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Nov 2005 10:34 am

Like Ken I'd chose the EVM speaker (not a "Force", though) for a deluxe. It's more efficient (louder) and has better bass response, as well. Though the D-130's have a really sweet sound, they're lacking in bass response, which IMHO, is more important in a low-powered amp.

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 5 Nov 2005 1:29 pm

The Force 12 is much like a JBL in response, The EVM-12L is a deep basket and moves a ton of air even at low volumes. The Delta Pro by Eminence is a dead clone of the EVM12L (I have a pair of these)

From the US Speaker website:
DELTA PRO-12A

NEW IMPROVED POWER HANDLING OF 400 WATTS RMS
FEATURES A 2.5" ALUMINUM VOICE COIL & HIGH SENSITIVITY OF 100DB SPL
CAST ALUMINUM BASKET FOR GREATER STRENGTH
VERSATILE ENOUGH SPEAKER TO BE USED AS A GUITAR OR BASS SPEAKER OR FOR 2-WAY P.A. SYSTEMS
THE DELTA PRO-12A HAS SIMILAR TONAL CHARACTERISTICS AS THE DISCONTINUED EVM 12L 12" GUITAR SPEAKER
AN EXCELLENT REPLACEMENT FOR THE EVM-12L GUITAR SPEAKER!

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 06 November 2005 at 05:54 PM.][This message was edited by Ken Fox on 06 November 2005 at 05:55 PM.]

Brett Habben · Post by **Brett Habben** » 5 Nov 2005 5:54 pm

Jon,
For this conversation slaving amps is driving a second amp off the output of the first. The first amp (typically tube) has the desirable tone, but not enough volume. You could slave your DR into a TR, but you are going to have to make the TR tonally 'neutral'. It could be done.
Another combo would be a rack containing your DR head with everything statically set for your tone, a speaker emulator, an EQ, and a cheap 100-200 watt stereo pro power amp. You'd drive a separate speaker cab containing a pair of EV12L or EV15L's. This would give you your exact tone at virtually any volume.
What I think you want is for your TR to just sound like your DR. Mods could be done to alter your TR's tone to get it closer to the DR. How hard/compressed do you drive your DR?
Adios,
Brett

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 8 Nov 2005 11:55 am

I have used an EVM in my deluxe since 1985. It sounds great and has since I put it in. It increases overhead (a little cleaner) and does not color the tone at all. I have a spare in the wings just in case.

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 10 Nov 2005 4:49 pm

Thanks for sharing the info on the Eminence Delta Pro speaker . I wonder if it would fit in my Peavey classic 30 tube combo amp ?

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 11 Nov 2005 11:55 am

I would also recommend the Eminence Cannabis Rex. It is made as an alternative to the Tone Tubby speakers, and I have it in my amps now exclusively. They are extremely warm, mellow and clean when you push. When you push hard, they do that well too!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 11 Nov 2005 5:46 pm

O.K. I now have an EVM-12L in my Deluxe. No one mentioned that it would be like picking up a Session 500!
Played a bit through it today at low volume and it sounds good. No ice pick factor at all. I don't think I will have to remove the "Bright" cap, at this rate.
This one is a made for Mesa Boogie "Black Shadow" EVM-12L speaker (says EVM 200W on it).
More tone reports to come after some higher volume field testing (so far I'm just borrowing this speaker for "evaluation").
~pb
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 11 November 2005 at 05:54 PM.]