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Topic: Franklin Question |
Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 15 Sep 2005 5:37 am |
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Paul
I listened to the new George Jones
CD all day yesterday at work and
last night I was playing along with
it and I noticed to get some of your
sustain I was getting pretty loud.
I play a push/pull with Nashville 400.
It sounds like your amp is in a room
and the mike is not very close to
the amp? Tell us how it is done and
what mike is being used?
Thanks
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Rick Johnson
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 3:18 am
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Bump
Still hopefull Paul sees this.
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Rick Johnson
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 3:40 am
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Although I am not Paul, can you tell ?
I have also listened many times to the Studio tone / effects that have been dominant on Pauls recordings..
One of the items I have come to notice is the sound of....or similar to ...
Early Reflections Reverb, or a very similar trick..which makes it appear as mentioned above..
Obviously this is not done with a Stock N400 or any other amp...
Try fooling with various reverbs from an outboard unit and you may stumble across just what it is you are looking for...
I personally record/practice thru a Yamaha AW2816 Workstation which uses the Yamaha OS2 Operating system and has a wide variety of Reverbs/Delays etc...
A patch I wrote which is very similar to what you are asking uses early relections reverb and a mix with approx 280ms of single slap delay at about 40%
I still do not have an outboard device that has Early Reflections on it for a gig...
I am thinking the Line 6 PODS do have these varieties but I have not personally looked yet. I am waiting for the price to drop to $39.99 
It's not quite the same as an elaborate studio and a real savy engineer..but it is an option.
just my 2 Cents..
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 September 2005 at 08:06 AM.] |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 23 Sep 2005 9:00 am
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Having worked with Paul as an engineer in the studio before, I can tell you he likes having the mics off his cabinets about 12-18 inches, which will definitely pick up the sound of the room, especially if it's pretty live. It really gives more of a "live performance" feel to the track. He discussed this in some detail a while back in a thread about Alan Jackson's last record that was cut in Miami at Criteria/Hit Factory. You might do a search for that...  |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 8:33 am
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Tony
Thanks for the reply, I appreciate
your help.
John
Thanks also, I looked in the Archives
and never could locate the topic.
Still hope Paul sees this.
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Rick Johnson
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 12:44 pm
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John, that's interesting. I've noticed that Paul also seems to like having his bass set far lower than most steelers. The mic's off the cabinet like that would also eliminate that bassy proximity effect. He gets such a clear sound.
Brad
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Dag Wolf
From:
Bergen, Norway
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 1:34 pm
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Hmm... On some recordings Paul has way more volume on his bass strings than most of us.
I suspect his closed back speakers has something to do with this.
Great thread.
Dag
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 6:26 pm
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Thanks for digging that thread up John. I think Paul describes it so well when he talks about the "air" around the note when a speaker is used compared to direct. To me the speaker is a part of the instrument whether it's telecaster or steel guitar just as the carved wooden top is part of a fiddle or mandolin. For electrified instruments, it's where the electromagnetic/electromechanical energy actually becomes acoustic sound waves. It's where the rubber meets the road...
And Dag, I've noticed that for many instruments whether it's kick drum, bass guitar, guitar, steel, etc. that more "bass" does not make low notes louder, in fact it can make them quieter. The ear hears loudness in the midrange, so to make a low string loud, you sometimes have to reduce the bass to bring out the overtones and make it more audible. If not, the excessive lows will prevent you from being able to bring it up in the mix. One of the biggest mistakes I hear people make with live or recorded sound when trying to make a kick drum "fat" is to make it bassy. You get more impact and power and audibility by letting the overtones dominate over the low fundamental or subharmonics. Blah blah blah...
Brad[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 26 September 2005 at 07:34 PM.] |
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Jim Peters
From:
St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 8:20 pm
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| That's why Ampeg did the 10" speaker thing for bass. JP |
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Dag Wolf
From:
Bergen, Norway
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Posted 26 Sep 2005 11:42 pm
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Brad, Thanks for the input - it makes sence.
Dag |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 27 Sep 2005 8:19 pm
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| Yes, I've noticed that too much bass, especially with a 15" speaker, makes the low strings sound muffled. That's why modern bass speaker systems have horn tweeters, and some have all 10" speakers. This brings out the overtones relative to the fundamental, and thereby gives clarity and string separation. This works fine for bass, because they don't have high strings. But for steel we have the high strings to deal with. A tweeter, 10" speaker, or dialing up the presence and treble sounds good for the low strings, but sounds shrill and harsh on the high strings - and you get a lot of pick and bar noise. This is why I would some day love to try a split pickup with a two channel amp (or two separate amps). The pickup for the unwound strings could have the treble down and the bass cranked up. The pickup for the wound strings could have the bass down and the mids and treble cranked up. A couple of 6-string pickups would work out real nice on a 12-string pedal steel. Also, you could have different windings on the pickups - maybe more windings on the bass string pickup. |
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Franklin
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 7:52 am
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[This message was edited by Franklin on 29 September 2005 at 06:13 AM.] |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 9:33 am
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| Sound travels about 220 feet in 200 milliseconds. |
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Franklin
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 1:40 pm
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Ernest,
And your point is.......
Paul |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 4:12 pm
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| That's a pretty big room. |
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Franklin
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 4:57 pm
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Ernest / Doug Livingston,
So what? 220 feet is large compared to my living room and small compared to the Astrodome.
Paul
[This message was edited by Franklin on 28 September 2005 at 06:03 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 28 September 2005 at 10:11 PM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 28 September 2005 at 10:24 PM.] |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 28 Sep 2005 10:31 pm
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Actually a 200 ms subtle delay would model what we hear as a steel player on stage from a 110 foot room, no? (110 feet to the back wall, 110 feet back to the steel player).
That's about exactly the length of the Den on Broadway, if my memory serves.
This is a great thread. I love the discussion about how to deal with recording in the tiny iso chambers for speakers. I'm going to have to try that trick out.
In terms of 10" speakers, one of my favorite cabs has 2X10" Celestions, and 1X12" JBL E120. It gives me a lot of options in terms of tone when recording, based on which speakers are miked, and how far the mike is placed from the speaker. Some times the 10" is just the ticket.
I've got to second Pauls recomendation for recording live (versus through the board). Whenever I track with the rhythm section I bring my emergency kit: a 100' heavy duty speaker cord and a Shure SM7 mike. The speaker cord enables me to place the speaker cab where ever it needs to be (in the back yard, in a bathroom, in the garage), and the SM7 does really well with long mike cable lengths (which is not true with my favorite ribbon mikes).
I just did a session with a producer who was adament about me recording direct (because he was paranoid about 'bleed'). I didn't argue with him, but just set up my emergency setup (with the speaker cab in the studio kitchen). I plugged into his POD XT which sounded fine. I then asked to A/B the POD versus the speaker. I didn't have to twist his arm. It was like the difference between taking a bite of homemade cherry pie with homemade ice cream, and looking at a Marie Callender advertisement. |
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Franklin
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 4:36 am
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Dan,
Thanks for the analysis. Yes, the reflection is about the same as "The Den" which is the type of live room I prefer. Because I view the microphone as my ear, the speaker sounds sweeter the farther I am from it. I've never understood the logic of placing the mic' against the screen in an iso booth. When the mic'is placed several inches away it hears the air movement, along with the center cone, and paper. My temper prevented me from going any farther with any response, as you can tell by the edits in my last post.
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 29 September 2005 at 05:41 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 29 September 2005 at 05:45 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 29 September 2005 at 06:11 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 29 September 2005 at 06:12 AM.] |
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Rick Johnson
From:
Wheelwright, Ky USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 4:38 am
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Paul
Thanks for your reply, and to all the
others as well. I get to do some overdubs
next week and I'm tired of the "line in"
or direct sound I get.
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Rick Johnson
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 5:21 am
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Paul or Dan, have you ever tried a Sennheiser 409 on your speakers? EV RE-15?
Brad
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 5:58 am
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What little recording I do, the sound guys are familiar with recording guitars through the speakers, and understand that the speaker is part of the instrument. One suburban studio put my speaker in the open garage adjacent to the studio when I cut my track. I was playing solo to the whole neighborhood. It's the bartender's cousin who runs the sound system at some gig that always wants to run me through his rinky-dink board. When I tell them to mic me, they conveniently don't have enough mics. How can you explain to these guys that playing through the flat response, full-spectrum board and PA speakers is completely different than playing through a guitar speaker. A 10"-15" instrument speaker rolls off the highs, has acceptable mids, and boosts the lows. It is designed to give good guitar tone, not a flat response. Theoretically, with a multiband EQ you could make the board duplicate the guitar speaker voice. But I wouldn't have a clue how to do that, and would have to play with it for hours. And what would the point be, when I automatically have the tone I want through a speaker I have carefully chosen?
As I understand the theory for mic placement, as you move a mic away from a source, the lows drop off faster than the highs. So engineers like to get the mic close to the speaker to get all the lows. But that's just theory, and doesn't account for the added room sound you get with more distance. There is probably a sweet spot in distance, just like there is a sweet spot between the edge of the speaker and the center. You can only find it with the ears. |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 8:12 am
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David. I don't think there's any eq in the world that can re-create a speaker voice. Speaker voicing isn't just an EQ curve. It's full of dynamic compression that's different at different frequencies, it's got bass damping, the paper is full of distortion and phase anomolies out the yin-yang, air is moving, and more. Those are just some of the reasons a speaker is so musical and colorful sounding. Also, when you back a mic off the cone, the mic can "see" more of the whole sound and not just a small spot on the cone. There are sweet spots, but if you back off to look at the whole thing, it'll be more true. I like to bring a mic with me to gigs because I don't trust the sound person to have a good one, or in your case, to have one at all. At gigs I like to bring along a Sennheiser 409 or 421 and depending on the ambient stage volume, I'll put it anywhere from on the grill to 8" away. In the studio it's safer to back off much more than that because of the bleed factor. For years I had a speaker cab with a short gooseneck right on the front of the baffle. That would let me place a mic wherever I wanted and the sound person didn't need anything for me but a mic cable.
Brad[This message was edited by Brad Sarno on 29 September 2005 at 09:12 AM.] |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 8:43 am
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| Yeah, that's about what I thought, Brad. But that's even more to try to explain to the next bozo who has a low end board and snake and thinks he's a sound engineer. Guess I should invest in a good instrument mic. |
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Dan Tyack
From:
Olympia, WA USA
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Posted 29 Sep 2005 11:27 am
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Brad I do like the Sennheiser 409. I just happen to own a Shure SM7, which is equivalent (both dynamic mikes with a better low end and less hyped upper mids compared to an SM57). For some stuff (especially rock and roll) a 57 is just the thing.
But I mostly use ribbon mikes. My favorites right now are an AEA R84 and a Pacific Pro Audio knockoff. I place them a couple of feet from the cab. Sometimes the engineer will also use a room mike (usually a big diaphram condensor like a Neuman), but I'd bet that the ribbon wins in the mix most of the time.
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www.tyack.com
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