Vintage Full-range verses 2-Way Speakers?

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 4 Aug 2005 5:49 pm

Why are the vintage full range speakers so sought after? Such as EV, Goodman,and Altec's $600.00. Seems like they are preferred with tube hi-fi amps. There is even a web site devote to full range speakers for hi-fi's and they even use cheap Radio Shack drivers in some designs.
I was in the market for bookshelf speakers such as Boston Acoustics, Infinity Primus, Energy C1, PSB Alpha, Mission, NHT, etc. when i noticed this full range concept. Just wondered if a full range speaker could really compare to a 2-way with a subwoofer or even large 3-way floor speakers.

Michael Whitley · Post by **Michael Whitley** » 5 Aug 2005 10:13 pm

The full range speakers have two things going for them: They have no crossover distortion, and they are a "point source", as are coaxial speakers.
The lack of a crossover goes along with a somewhat obscure branch of audio I guess is called "minimalist", the idea being that the less components there are in the audio chain, the less non-linearities (distortion) will be introduced into the sound. In amplifiers, this theme reaches it's peak in class A tube amps using the big old triode tubes, which is why you see tube amps pushing many of the nicer full range speakers.
The point source idea is that all of your sound (except what's coming through the bass port, which doesn't count much in this context) is coming from two distinct points in space - the left and right speakers. This improves "imaging" - the sense that a sound is coming from a precise point in the room. As the sound source is split between multiple points, the perceived location of each instrument starts to blur.
I use Lowther 8" speakers, in Hedlund Horn cabinets, in my stereo system (Moondog amps), and some little cast-frame 8" full-range EVs in both my compact PA system and my studio monitors.

Michael Whitley · Post by **Michael Whitley** » 6 Aug 2005 12:23 am

If you want loud, you go other routes.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Aug 2005 2:26 pm

Altec's 604 coaxial two-way speaker is still the most sought after because it works so well I was reading an interview with Jim Lansing in which he mentioned that he still hadn't been able to make a better sounding speaker than that one after decades of research and effort.

The advantage of "point source" speaker technology is not so much in the imaging (although that is a consideration) as it is in the elimination of time-delay distortion:

When two (or more) sources reproduce identical information simultaneously (such as in the crossover range of multi-band rigs) there will be an interval between the time each driver's information arrives at the listener unless they are exactly equidistant from the both. The resulting time discrepancy produces comb-filtering, a crazy-quilt pattern of reinforced and diminished frequencies that changes as one moves about the listening area. When you consider that the audio wavelength at 10KHz is close to an inch long you can see that this can affect fidelity significantly.

If you can find a good pair of 604's you better grab 'em. If you don't want to keep them you'll have no problem finding them a new home and you sor sure won't lose money.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 7 Aug 2005 3:14 pm

Most people with vintage tube amps want vintage sound, and you're not going to get "vintage sound" with most new speakers! The '50s and '60s gave us the introduction of woofers, mid-ranges, and tweeters. While all these helped in their own ranges, for the reasons mentioned above, they don't always work well together. I've heard modern hi-fi systems that cost many thousands of dollars, but they all pale in comparison to an old Seeburg jukebox when it comes to playing old records.

It's no different in the world of pedal steel. Some players today spend thousands on a new steel, special humbucking pickups, a powered volume pedal, special cords, a tube preamp, a fancy processor, a big digital amp, and special speakers, just to get the same sound steelers of the '60s got out of an old steel with single-coil pickups, a pot pedal, and an old tube amp.

Go figure.

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 7 Aug 2005 7:50 pm

Donny,

The '50s and '60s gave us the introduction of woofers, mid-ranges, and tweeters.

I don't mean to be too technical but the proper terminology would be "woofers, squawkers, and tweeters". I kid you not.

By the way, my favorite way to listen to music is through a single 4" Fostex 6301B speaker. Almost no non-linearities in that little dude. And I love a mono source. There can be a bunch of nasty interaction in a stereo system because there are two sources and anything that is panned center in a recording is going to collide. I know it's wonderful if you set up a soundstage and align things so that great imaging can bring you into the experience. If I want a realistic audiophile type experience, I'll set a system up correctly and I always end up enjoying it for about 35 minutes (my limit on concentration). Then, when I want to listen to music while working or reading, out comes Mr. Fostex and I have many hours of real listening pleasure. I have read studies that suggest that stereo can be distracting when compared to mono.

Dave, I have measured hundreds of loudspeakers and I have not seen much comb-filtering at the crossover (overlap) in a multi-way system. What does happen a lot that's bad, is non-linearity in the phase response which IMHO is a big deal. Many loudspeaker manufacturers ignore this most important aspect of speaker design probably because it's really hard to fix and many just don't think it's important.
TC [This message was edited by T. C. Furlong on 07 August 2005 at 08:51 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 7 Aug 2005 9:46 pm

T.C. I'm curious about your measurements. Are you talking about phase distortion caused by the crossovers or something else?

Without physical or electrical time-alignment there will be anomolies in the response centered at the crossover points, whether or not you can identify it as comb filtering. If the system in not coaxial these anomalies will be different at various locatins in the coverage pattern.

The better active multi-band speaker systems all employ time-alignment to minimize delay issues, and most of the best stand-alone modern active crossovers are fourth order (24db per octave) units in an attempt to narrow the parts of the spectrum that suffer from phase distortion to a minimum.

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 07 August 2005 at 10:48 PM.]

T. C. Furlong · Post by **T. C. Furlong** » 9 Aug 2005 7:38 pm

Dave,
The phase response I am measuring is a transfer function (electrical versus acoustic or reference versus measured) that shows phase response(phase in degrees versus frequency). Comb filtering can easily be seen in a transfer function that shows frequency response (magnitude versus frequency). As you point out, comb filtering is a result of identical signals summing when each arrives at a different time. The frequency at which comb filtering begins is directly related to the time difference. With a decent crossover design, the overlap is kept to a minimum by rolling off each of the pass bands before they are close enough in level to interact to the point of causing comb filtering. I use a Meyer Sound Labs SIM 3 analyzer and a PC program called SMAART by SIA. I don't know if you have an analyzer that does transfer functions, but it is a really great way to see what you are hearing. Check out the following link http://www.tcfurlong.com/alignment/index.htm
then click through to SIM3 Audio Analyzer. It's pretty dang cool.

With a multi-way speaker, as you change your position relative to, and in the axis of the two drivers, lobing error occcurs and it's different in each direction. The only way to deal with this is, as you say, align the drivers in time in the on-axis position, thereby minimizing the error in each direction
TC[This message was edited by T. C. Furlong on 09 August 2005 at 08:46 PM.][This message was edited by T. C. Furlong on 09 August 2005 at 08:48 PM.]

Wayne Carver · Post by **Wayne Carver** » 10 Aug 2005 4:43 am

Seems like the Lowther & Fostex are two of the most popular full range speakers that DIY speaker builders use. Does anyone have any experience using the Fostex FE-206E?