Tuning Offset

Dag Jonas Skjoelsvold · Post by **Dag Jonas Skjoelsvold** » 24 May 2005 7:22 am

I have a Peterson StroboStomp tuner for my Carter - E9. Currently with these offsets:

B -1,9 cents
D -3,9
E 0.0
F# -3,9
G# -13.7
D# -13,7

Raises/Loweres:
A +3.9
C# -5,9
D +5,9
F -17,8
F# +5,9
Eb -3,9
Bb +9,8

I'm playing in a band with to other guitars and a keyboard, all tuned 440. Is this the best offset or should I program my tuner to be even more in tune with the other instruments? If so - any suggestions for offsets?

Edit: my offsets are from the Peterson forum.[This message was edited by Dag Jonas Skjoelsvold on 24 May 2005 at 09:42 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 7:38 am

Oh for God's sake!
Don't try to second guess the tuner, just tune everything straight up so the other musicians won't laugh at you behind your back.

I'm just looking more carefully at this post; 13 CENTS?!? 17 CENTS?!?!? TELL ME I'M HALLUCINATING AND THAT NOBODY REALLY DOES THIS, PLEASE I BEG YOU!!!
An intervention may be in order...[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 24 May 2005 at 08:45 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 8:05 am

Oh Marty...

Now you've really gone and done it...

Check the Jeff Newmann Tuning chart.

It's 30 cents off within one position too..

EJL

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 May 2005 8:39 am

Playing in tune has less to do with how you tune than people think. Its more about your ears than anything. Check with some players near you that play on a professional level and have them show you what they do.

In my experience the Newman pre sets are a great starting point for playing in tune with any sort of ensemble.

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Bob
intonation help

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 8:41 am

Don't listen to him Dag!
He's leading you down the primrose path to your certain musical demise!

Its more about your ears than anything.

C'mon Bob, if you really believe this then let's dispense with the altered tunings and just train our ears with proper straight-up tuning, ok?

This whole thing is just embarrassing!
Stop it.[This message was edited by Marty Pollard on 24 May 2005 at 09:51 AM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 10:57 am

Well. Marty, I hate to have to tell you, but there are people that claim that it can't be done...

In case you didn't notice in your exile to the Forbidden Zone, there have been many technological advances..

You actually can buy a tuner,(now that they have the technology), that causes serious musicians to laugh behind your back..

It was bound to happen.

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 11:58 AM.]

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 11:11 am

Shoot, and here I am stuck with this chromatic anachronism that simply indicates in or out of tune!

What, oh what, am I to do?
*wring hands*
*wet bed*
*sob*

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 11:17 am

Listen to a computer generated beatless chord until you are beatless.

I swore I'd quit when I needed glasses..

I didn't...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 12:18 PM.]

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 24 May 2005 11:34 am

Dag,
Tune all your open strings, then all the pedals and knee lever changes,to the tuner, so that your steel is in tune with itself. Now, when you play with band, try to play in tune with them. The steel is a fretless instrument and there is a lot of leeway with bar movement. Rolling or sliding the bar gives you a form of tremolo effect which can overide small discrepencies in pitch. The open strings are another problem if the band is not in tune with you. I try to shy away from open tuning use if all is not in tune. Sometimes you can't, and you have to just live with it, nobody will know but you. Try playing along with some bagpipes, sometime!!

Dag Jonas Skjoelsvold · Post by **Dag Jonas Skjoelsvold** » 24 May 2005 12:11 pm

Thanks for the tips John.
The cause of my worry concerning tuning of my steel is that my band currently are recording our new album, and it's hard make it sound in tune if the steel itself not is in tune, even though my bar is at the right spot.

I thought many of you had a Peterson V-II (or Sam) with offsets?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 May 2005 12:27 pm

"The right spot" is the spot where you are in tune with the band. Once your guitar is in tune with itself, it's up to you to find "the right spot" for each chord by listening closely to what you're playing.

The offset only matters if you're playing open strings where you have no control over pitch. As soon as you lay down the bar, playing in tune is a function of your hands and brain. The offset of the open strings doesn't matter at all.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Williams D-12 E9, C6add9, Sierra Olympic S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop S-8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, C6 or A6)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 May 2005 12:39 pm

Jeff Newman spent quite a bit of his life doing research on those settings in order to make life a little more simple for people learning how to play. Jeff Newman's legacy is his work with students. He was truly great at it. His system works.

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Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 24 May 2005 at 01:41 PM.]

Steve French · Post by **Steve French** » 24 May 2005 1:01 pm

Gone and done it is right. Few things on this forum will cause a more ferocious and heated debate. For more than you'll ever want to hear on this topic, search for a thread call "Tempered Tuning Armageddon." There are many other threads covering this topic. There are world-class, virtuoso players on both sides of this debate who seem to play in tune, whether they use ET or JI. So what does that tell you?

Steve

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 1:33 pm

Well, One side seems to state simple facts, with a minimum of frills, and overassuming postulations and premises, and the other side seems to endlessly misquote Mr Emmons and goes on for hours.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I may go a cent or so flat in some cases but strictly to handle temp changes under certain conditions.

Also when I hear a JI steel third in a ET track, flat is the only word I can come up with. -Buddy Emmons-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I gotta admit that I roadtested my simple Tune To The Tuner System™ for more than a quarter century and literally thousands live gigs before I even knew there was a serious debate about it.

There have been a number of highly intelligent and caring people that have devoted their lives to create Perpetual Motion.

I've been busy trying to live within the laws of physics, with limited results.

EJL

PS. Honestly, if even ONE post ot the hundreds I've read EVER made a credible case for flatting my thirds sixths and god knows what else to 'remove the beats', I'd have at least tried it. Indeed I could, as I doubt the bands I play with would know the difference, but none have, so I haven't

[This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 02:38 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 24 May 2005 1:49 pm

Hummina hummina hummina hummina!

(Just to add some light to this well-lit topic!)

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 2:04 pm

"...to make life a little more simple for people learning how to play."

Do you teach Bob?
Would you allow your students to do what-the-heck-ever just to make life easier in the short term?
I spend a lot of energy making my guitar students quit using the 3-finger pick grip because I remember how hard it was for me to unlearn this bad habit.

As to the teaching methods and attitudes of the departed, it's hardly sporting to quote them because I dare not state my opinion on THAT crap.

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 24 May 2005 2:29 pm

"Also when I hear a JI steel third in a ET track, flat is the only word I can come up with." -Buddy Emmons-

Eric, When he said ET, I think Buddy was talking about Ernest Tubb at the time.

Lee

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 24 May 2005 3:04 pm

Dag, whatever you do, don't use those offsets. JI is straight down the road to ruin--why look what it has done to the careers of those that use it, like Paul, Sonny, Dan, Bruce and oh so many others who just can't seem to get any work cause their guitars sound in tune. Yep, I'd stay away from it if I were you...

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 24 May 2005 3:32 pm

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 3:41 pm

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 24 May 2005 3:52 pm

Just learn to play in tune with the band!
All that careful preparation as you are describing (+ 6 cents, - 10 cents, etc.) can all come undone after you have played a couple of tunes. You don't want to be the one always plicking away between songs trying to get his steel in 'perfect' tune.

It seems like there was and still is a lot of great sounding music out there where the instruments were tuned without these 'new fangled' tuners. Above all, us steel players must be able to dynamically tune as we play.

This is just my personal experience from many years of playing live gigs.

Thanx,
Jim

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 24 May 2005 4:33 pm

All the tuners in the world won't make you play in tune once you move away from open strings...Your ears should do that..
Besides, open strings and chords are mostly a "No No" (Except for effects) in the real world of "Pro" playing...

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

Scott Appleton · Post by **Scott Appleton** » 24 May 2005 4:35 pm

Vsam 11 tempered tunings for E9 & C6 then minor ajustments on my U12 and i am go. No problem with the band .. Fiddle players .. now thats another thing altogether. I have to tune straight up 440 down the line it seems to get the steel / fiddle thang to work.

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Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130, Acoustic 100 W all tube, Nash 112
digitech 2101 FX

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 24 May 2005 5:45 pm

Well John, Determination is what gives you a Career, or a long string of public playing for money. Second to that, how you play, and how you tune is about fourth or fifth if it comes up at all...

Even a blind pig can find an acorn. The more determined he or she is, the more he or she will find. Numbers can only increase the odds.

I'm glad of that myself.

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 24 May 2005 at 06:53 PM.]

Ricky Littleton · Post by **Ricky Littleton** » 24 May 2005 6:31 pm

Here we go!

Important safety note for topics like these, "...when the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is NOT your friend!"

Ricky...

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Emmons LeGrande - 8x4
Session 400 Ltd, Nashville 112,Hilton Volume pedal, Peterson VS-II Tuner
Dan-Echo, E-Bow, Ibanez Distortion, Boss Comp./Sustain, Ibanez Auto-Wah, PX4 Pandoras Box