Solid-state amps have superseded tube amps?

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 4 Apr 2005 6:08 pm

Hi all,

As a naïve player, it has been my perception that hardly anybody uses tube amps around here, and I've come to wonder why enough to ask publicly. It seems that tube amps are reserved only for the use of pro sessions. Paul Franklin uses his Mesa-Boogie pre- and power-amp combo (as do Mike Johnson and Randle Currie). Lloyd Green has recorded with a Fender Hot Rod DeVille for his recent Alan Jackson sessions. Dan Dugmore records his Sho~Bud (Super?) Pro II through a Fender Twin Reverb. These are the sounds that turned my head and made me pick up the pedal steel. Yet the only tube amps I've seen played out live are TubeWorks rack-mounted preamp and power amps with separate speaker cabinets, and those are rare.

By far, the vast majority of players at the shows I've been to are playing through solid state amps, particularly--really, almost exclusively Peavey amps. I have read through a recent thread raving about Fender's Steel King amp, so I headed over to Fender's site to check out the specs. I was surprised to see that this was a solid state amp.

Clearly I am missing something. Now I must clarify that at the moment I own no amps. (Given that I live in an apartment and that I don't play out, my Tech 21 preamp hooked up to my computer soundcard does me just fine. Nobody but me wants to hear what I play anyways, and even then, there are many days where even I don't want to hear myself!

) I have played through a Nashville 400 that needed a little work. I thought the sound of my little Sho~Bud through it was fine, but nothing great; certainly nothing better than my pre-amp through my soundcard into my headphones. I have never had the opportunity to play through a tube amp. Perhaps this adds to the mystique--I haven't had a chance to be disappointed by one.

As a six-string guitarist, I come to the steel from a world where the various Holy Grails of tone are all tube-amp based. And I'm not just talking about the heavily distorted rock tones. The most crisp, sexy "clean" tones I've heard are from guys like Brent Mason and, my personal favorite, Eric Johnson. The catch here is that those clean tones are actually slightly distorted. The crux of this distortion, though, is the tubes: tubes feature soft clipping, leading to a smooth compression of the signal. Tubes also have the benefit of emphasizing even harmonics, which has a very musical effect to the human ear.

The downsides I know of to tube amps are, for one, that they're outrageously heavy, or at least enough people think so that it's a common complaint. For an aging steeler population, I can see how this is a concern, but as a fairly young buck who would gladly sacrifice comfort for promise of tone, I'd gladly take one for the team. I also know that tube amps require much more maintenance than their solid state brethren: tubes must be replaced from time to time, matched, and biased. It seems that tube amps have a built up, almost mythical reputation for unreliability, although I wonder how much of this is due to the electronics of the tube amp versus the solid state, rather than the fact that most tube amps I see talked about are older than I am. Tube amps also cost a bucketload of money for ones that were build in the "good old days" or ones that are built "just like the good old days"--you know, the ones with point-to-point wiring, classic styled transformers, and all that gobbledy-gook that I've never actually seen, just heard mentioned in hushed tones of reverence. Tube amps also supposedly feature less headroom than solid states, although as mentioned, the soft clipping in tube amps is often desired, even in clean tones, for its musically aesthetic characteristics.

I lament the disappearing popularity of tube amplifiers because it has the consequence of creating ever more inflated prices for remaining old tube amps and boutique tube amps. I used to dream about the day I'd be able to play a tele and a steel through those beautiful vacuum-tube beasts, but every day that dream becomes more absurdly unaffordable for a kid like me. They seem to be snapped up by professionals or independently wealthy vintage guitar collectors, to be tucked away under glass or in a closet, safe from harm, along with the possibility of making good music. I find it saddening, so it's better I should stop thinking about it.

Maybe I should stop thinking about tube amps, anyways. Maybe solid states really are it, especially for steels, and maybe someday amp modelling will really be all a guitarist needs. But I don't think so. I think you can mimic those classic sounds, but you can never capture the personality of the actual tube amp. It is really a mystique, and maybe it's just a silly belief, as founded in truth as voodoo is, but so much of music is about the mindset, anyways. If you believe in the mystique, maybe it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Who knows? I certainly don't.

So I'm curious, what are the perspectives of fellow Forumites? Please give me insight into what I'm missing; reshape my views so I can see all sides of the issues.

Chris

Edit: Needed some formatting.[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 04 April 2005 at 07:16 PM.]

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 4 Apr 2005 6:20 pm

Chris, first let me compliment you on a very well written letter. Second, even the Tubeworks power amps you are seeing are solid state! I feel it is all in the manner in which some of the "Star Players" play. They have thier own unique sound that will be present regardless of what type of amplification they use. I am quite sure you will get quite a number of replies from current players using tube amps and settling for nothing other.
Dave

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 4 Apr 2005 7:40 pm

Well Chris, I'll give you my take on your questions.

First off, let's see...how can I put this delicately? Those "sounds that turned you on" were made by players, not by their stupid amps. Believe me, Chris, I been doin' this music thing for 45 years. Lloyd, Dan, Mike and Randle would sound every bit as good through a good solid-state amp.

Next, the "soft clipping" of tube amps you refer to, a kind of distortion/compression, simply isn't preferred for pedal steel. Straight guitar players, including modern players like Brent, like it and take advantage of it because they don't use a volume pedal. (There are a few non-pedal steel players who like the characteristic, too.) Pedal steelers, the overwhelming majority, don't want any distortion; soft, sweet, smooth, or otherwise.

Big tube amps are heavy, but so are big solid-state amps. The weight only becomes a problem when you can't carry it. That's a problem that usually doesn't become apparent until your age gets past the half-century mark. Mother Nature will let you know, trust me!

As far a maintenance goes, that's the biggest area of concern. Good tubes are hard to come by, and the day is fast approaching when they simply won't be available. What do you do then if you're hooked on tubes? I'd say you're screwed. Contrary to some popular opinions, the matching/biasing exercise is generally unnecessary. The minor gains (and they are quite minor) you reap aren't significantly beneficial to the average player. If you're a top studio player...well, maybe then you can justify it. Players like most of us? Don't make me laugh!

Lastly, the tube amp "mystique" may be just that. So many top players today use solid-state amps that you have to question whether or not the difference is worth worrying about. I honestly think that there isn't one steeler out of a thousand that can listen to a recording, and tell whether or not the steeler on that recording used a tube amp.

So...what's the big deal with tube amps?

For pedal steelers, there probably isn't any.

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 4 Apr 2005 8:19 pm

David, thanks for the correction on the TubeWorks amps! Just goes to show my ignorance! Ha! Thanks for the compliment, as well.

Donny, I totally accept that the player holds most of the tone. Those Nashville cats sound great because they play great. To play devil's advocate, despite that they "sound every bit as good through a good solid-state amp", in the studios, they play through tubes. With total sincerity, why? Is it simply a case of machismo factor? That certainly doesn't seem to fit the description of these players' personalities. From what I've read, and certainly what I can verify from personal experience with Randle, these people are some of the nicest, most humble human beings around. That's what makes me wonder if there's merit to the madness.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 4 Apr 2005 8:59 pm

Chris, you can bet that if and when Lloyd records through a Hot Rod DeVille (or any other tube amp for that matter) it is not turned up very much at all, only loud enough to get a full tone. According to recent forum posts, most of the time Lloyd uses his chopped Twin Reverb head with a pair of 15" JBL speakers in separate boxes.

The reason that some steelers like the Twin is that it has the high power (120 watts plus) and thus the headroom necessary to deliver clean sound at a workable stage volume. Unfortunately, the list of available amps of this type is very short. On the other hand, high power, clean sounding solid state amps are much less expensive to manufacture and thus to own. The fact that a few of these are very good sounding units makes them ubiquitous amongst steelers here in the modern era.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 4 Apr 2005 10:28 pm

Chris, I think you hit the nail on the head with your first post. I was there when solid state amps became preeminent amoung steel players (which really only happened after the advent of the Peavey Session 400). IMHO the main reason for the popularity of solid state amps was that you could have a relatively light combo that could get really loud and stay clean. To match a Session 400 and stay really clean, one would need a couple of twins. And there was a shortage of decent power tubes for these amps, and it was expensive and a hassle to retube and bias. (and biasing really does make a difference, IMHO).

So the stampede towards transistor amps was driven by two basic types of players:

Those who truly like the transistor sound. There are a bunch of great steel players who fit in this group. It seems like jazz oriented players gravitate towards this sound, but there are some awesome country players who fit in here as well. I might not agree with their choice (e.g. IMHO Chaulker sounded way better through a pair of Bassmans than through a pair of Session 400s), but their choices are well thought through. One interesting thing about this group of players is that the amps they prefer tend to sound the most 'tubish' (e.g. Webb, Evans).

The other group of steel players (about 99% of them) use solid state amps because they are lighter and lower maintainnence than tube amps. THey truly can't hear the difference. They get an tone they love, and the amp is light and low maintainence.

For me (and I am approaching that half century mark) it's worth it to play through tube amps. And the distortion is definitely a part of the sound, as is was for all steel playing up until the mid 70s. A clean fender still has at least 5% THD, that's part of the sound of those classic recordings.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Ray DeVoe · Post by **Ray DeVoe** » 5 Apr 2005 12:10 am

Hi Chris.

I can hardly wait for Mr "you will have to pry my twin from my dead hands" Brad Sarno, along with others such as Ken Fox and David Doggett to reply to your thread.

It's a very interesting subject.

What is the hottest new item on the market today which is endorsed by about everybody who is anybody? It's the currently out of stock "Black Box" designed and sold by Brad Sarno. The box's main feauture is a "tube" to help warm up the sound. I own one and love it.

I am just a simple weekend player who has played in bands for the past 25 years.
I thrive and "fool" the public with those warm sweet crying intro's, turn arounds and ballads, alot of which were written a "few years" back. Im being kind to myself as to the few years back.. I just turned old enough to walk into McDonalds and order my senior citizen coffee with a straight face.

I have collected and tried a lot of different equipment over the years. Quality sound comes from many different things. First of all, most of the Nashville "big boys" could get tone out of a wooden fence post with strings on it.

Talent, feel and technique is where sound starts. Then equipment fine tunes the act. In my case, fine equipment helps to make up for moderate talent.
Its the love of the instrument and learning how to play it that keeps most of us either loosing our hair or turning dead white like mine.

I personally have collected 2 steels which will never be sold while Im still "kickin".
They are a 1967 and a 1969 double neck P.P. Emmons, both in new condition. The good old standard 8 and 4. This is a fine place for good sound to originate. At my age, 2 steels are a limit. Its the only way I can remember when I last changed the famous 3rd and 5th strings so that they dont break in the middle of an act.

Then comes the "black box" in my line up. It really adds to the sound. All that is needed after that before the amp is a good quality delay unit of some type. I use an Alesis Midiverb 4.

Before purchasing the Black Box,I tried to get that warm tube sound by purchasing a "transtubefex" that was set up real well by Bobby Boggs. (Forum member) The transtube fex is a fine unit if used as a preamp to power amp setup, but I found that when used in front of a standard amp, one has to deal with eliminating hum, input and output levels and trying to eliminate "white noise."

Well, all of the above finally leads to the subject of your thread. The amp. There are quite a few good steel amps out there. I was always an Evans Fet 500 man, but recently acquired several different amps in my late life "change" or whatever it was. I have finally settled on a couple of different Webb setups as my solid state units and I have a couple of vintage Fender 135 watt Vibrosonics as my tube amp choice. Tube amps are still very popular. One of the fellows who already replied to your thread, just bought a tube amp from me this week and is awaiting delivery. It is one of Fenders new reissues and it sounds terrific.

One of my Vibrosonics had a rough cabinet but great chassis so I did what most of us grey haired players do. I pulled the chassis and put it in a head cabinet. This 135 watt head combined with 2 Webb cabinets with 8 ohm K 130's in them can get the job done in style. I have used this setup non-miked several times in a large club that seats around 250. You know the the type. The kind of place where for 5 bucks, a patron can witness a great band, see at least some kind of comedy routine on the floor and partake in a good old wrestling match before the bouncers reach them .

If someone tells you that there is not much difference in the sound of the s.s. verses tube amps,I would ask if they had ever lined up several of the top shelf amps along with a good Fender tube amp and played them until they were almost totaly confused. That was my "acid" test. The Evans Fet 500, The Webb and the Vibrosonic. They are all fine amps, but the tube amp will drown the others when it comes to warmth and sweetness. This trial was done using identical Webb cabinets with K130's so that there would be no speaker variances.

For what its worth, the above is my personal thoughts on equipment and sound. I beleive that a lot of it depends on application. I would not consider using a tube amp for everyday road use. In my case, the roughest ride my amp gets is in the back seat of my personal vehicle. I still think LLoyd is onto something when he records with that Fender tube amp. Lets see what the wizzes have to say.

Maybe even LLoyd might grace us with his thoughts.

Ray Devoe

[This message was edited by Ray DeVoe on 05 April 2005 at 02:20 AM.]

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Apr 2005 1:52 am

As was mentioned in another parallel post, Peavey sponsors steel shows and provides a lot of the stage amplifiers, I think maybe a lot of steel players aren't rich enough to fly their own amps all over the place? Anytime you hear a band with miked amps, you are hearing solid-state amplification of the amps on stage through the PA, whether the amps are tube or not. I know that a MXR Dynacomp compressor is considered essential for a certain classic "popping" Nashville Tele sound; Duane Allman used to use one also, specifically with a run-down-low battery. Stevie Ray Vaughn and many others used an Ibanez Tube Screamer as an essential part of their sound.

Eric Johnson is one of my favorite tone monsters also, along with Steve Morse. You've probably seen this: http://guitargeek.com/rigview/588/
There's a whole lot of transistor devices there running into some tube amps, which are then miked and amplified through a solid state PA. Albums are mixed through solid state boards, though studios use a lot of tube mikes, compressors and such to add certain tonal flavors. Your Walkman and Ipod and computer card and speakers are probably solid state?

There are some tube preamps and stompboxes that have one or a few 12AX7 tubes in them, I own one and use it a lot (Tubeworks "Real Tube" modded with a 12AU7). These are the tubes usually used in the preamp stages of a tube amplifier. Serious tubeheads hold that power amp tubes are important for "that sound" and I think they're right if you insist on exactly matching a classic sound. Nothing can beat a Marshall stack or a Twin Reverb or a Boogie if that's the sound that you have to have.

The distortion that makes tube amps sound tubey, however, comes at a price - if you're playing complex chords the upper harmonics of the various notes will often clash when distorted. This is why power chords of fifths and octaves sound good through screaming tubes, and why it is so easy to make gruesome noises through a fuzztone by playing too many notes at once. A lot of classic pedal steel playing involves certain notes moving against other held notes, and you won't see too many Marshall stacks at a steel show for a good reason - it would sound awful.

It seems to me that most rock guitarists nowadays are using at least two amps on stage, and using A-B boxes, pan pedals or letting the soundman turn up the mixer channels depending on the sound needed in the song. People like Morse and Johnson who use a lot of complex chords definitely have a clean and a dirty amp at least - I think Morse is using three amps and four volume pedals these days? You can fake this sort of thing with Y-cords, stompboxes and mini-mixers, though again, a Marshall stack sure would be nice... trying to explain your tonal urges to the little old lady who lives in the apartment downstairs & the landlord & the police would be not so nice.

It seems to me that steel guitarists are maybe more careful about their tone than modern rock guitarists in general these days. People are getting used to modeled sounds. I've heard some really awful sounding guitar sounds on TV lately - not the commercials, but on "American Idol" and such, don't even get me started on those piezo-infested polystyrene-ukelele-sounding Takamine "acoustics" that have apparently permanently ruined the Grand Ole Opry.... Shovel enough crap at people for long enough, and eventually they'll start grading it on quality, texture and aroma, sigh.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 5 Apr 2005 2:21 am

I'm one of the "solid state guy's". I was brought up in the tube world (I'm 67) and have been in Electronics since 1955 in both audio and RF (I used to have a ham license too). I made my living as an amp tech at one time and most of that was from replacing tubes in customers amps (that and the screen grid resistors in Twin Reverbs).

There are those that must have a tube amp or tube preamp. Others such as myself that are perfectly happy with the Peavey steel guitar amps.

I've got a couple of ART MPL tube mic/instrument preamps that I use for mic's with my Fostex recorder. I tried one with my steel, and didn't like it at all.

I had (and the key is had) a TubeWorks Blue Tube II (12AX7 tube) preamp that I was going to use in my rack system with my MosValve 500 Power amp. I didn't like the sound there either and now have a solid state Rocktron "Sidewinder" preamp.

However, if I went back to playing lead guitar again I would have a tube amp such as a Fender.

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 5 Apr 2005 5:16 am

There are "musicians" who make music and there are equipment conscious "players". It is ok to pursue a good sound,but a good sound is not totally a product of the equipment.

Earl Foote · Post by **Earl Foote** » 5 Apr 2005 5:36 am

I like distortion. Bring back the saturation control!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 5 Apr 2005 5:45 am

Like many have stated .. "tone is in the hands".. However,for a minority of us on this forum, its all tubes or nothing... I have owned a Session 400,Session 500,Vegas,Nashville 112,as well as a Peavey Deuce,[tube power SS pre]and 4 Music Man amps[tube power SS pre]... They are ALL good, but IMHO NONE could match the warmth and "sweetness" of an all tube Fender.. I saw a guy on ebay win a tube amp I was after.. his username was "tubeygoodness"... I think that says it all.

SS amps are fine.. loud,clean,perfectly suited to steel.. I still won't use them.. to ME,they sound sterile compared to a good Fender ...I will put up with tube headaches to get the sound I prefer.... SS? tubes?, Its apples and oranges...all good... bob

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 5 Apr 2005 5:53 am

Let me add this.. I played 12 years in a band with a bass player.. He would Never consider a tube amp until he consistantly heard the tone I got on steel and guitar with my Fender amps.
After constant comparison,he also decided tubes just sounded "warmer"sweeter","BETTER" than SS. He dumped his SS Peavey power amp and seperate SS preamp, got himself a 300 watt Kitty Hawk all tube power amp and a preamp with tube AND SS switchable, and was THRILLED with his sound.. He was sorry he hadn't done it YEARS earlier.. IMHO, the improvement in his tone was dramatic... For MANY[not all] tubes DO sound better....bob

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 5 Apr 2005 6:47 am

At least with a pair of 6L6's you got a place to warm your ham and cheese sandwich.
Groove is in the heart, tone is in the paws...
Ah, the debate live on...

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 5 Apr 2005 7:26 am

I think the answer is in the hybrid approach. Transistors are good for light and loud and clean power. Tubes are good for generating musical (warm) even-order overtones, harmonic enhancement. Even Webb and Evans amps use FET transistors to help generate tube-like distortion overtones. Purely clean transistor amplificaton will sound comparitively sterile. It seems that most of the "great" steel sounds we love from the past and also hear today have tubes or at least FET's or tube amp modeling in there somewhere. Consider Mike Johnson or Paul Franklin who help define today's commercially recorded steel sound. They both use tube preamps and MOSFET power amps. Consider Lloyd Green's tone that he has for years gotten from Fender tube amps. Consider Buddy's recent live use of an amp modeller (Genesis) set up to emulate a vintage Fender tweed amp or also his Standel Tube amp. Consider Buddy's classic "Black" album which was a Fender Twin. Consider Tom Brumley's tone which is also from a Fender tube amp. And Randy Beavers' use of the Alembic F2B tube preamp is also delivering a tone that many find to be great. John Hughey says one of the best sounds he ever got was from an old Evans Hybrid amp, tube pre, SS power. How about the classic Jimmy Day sound thru that old tweed Fender Pro amp... Jerry Byrd has preferred a Fender Twin for years.

It seems that tube's will always be with us to some degree. Even in the steel recording situation, people often gravitate toward tube mic's or tube mic preamps. Tubes bring out a dynamic and harmonic quality that the human ear finds to be more musical and less fatiguing. Especially when a steel stringed instrument with a magnetic pickup is involved, tubes breathe live, warmth, smoothness, and sweet treble into the sound in a way that transistors simply aren't capable of. I think that for steel, the need for clean and loud won't go away. Many have found that a great solution is to use tubes in the stages before the power amp and let the power section be light, loud, and solid-state. This hybrid setup is quite popular today in many forms whether it be a Tube-Fex, Alembic pre, Black Box, Mesa Boogie tube-pre, Line-6 POD (tube emulation), etc.

As they say over at Manley Labs... "Tubes Rule".

Brad Sarno www.steelguitarblackbox.com

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 5 Apr 2005 8:01 am

Degree is everything. You'll note in my previous post that I never said tube and solid-state amps sound exactly alike. There are differences. My contention is only "Is the difference enough to make a real difference?" For Lloyd sitting in the studio, the answer is probably "yes". The problem is though, as David said, that there's a "sound chain" that we all wind up going through in normal playing. If you take the sweet sound of a tube amp, and run that through a solid-state processor, then a solid state digital deck, and on to a digital CD, which is then played on digital equipment, how much are you really gaining, real world, by using the tube gear? Sure, the player hears the difference, but does the listener??? I've been to a lot of steel jams, and for the most part I'm totally unimpressed with the sounds from both pro and amateur alike. Some of this is due to the fact that the player's sound is coming out of a solid state sound system, regardless of what tube device the player is using. The minute gains (tone enhancements?) realized are also partially washed out by all the other instruments. Also, there's my own personal views of what sounds good or bad. So, where are we, exactly? If tube gear makes you feel good, then I'd say "go ahead and use it". Still, you have to realize and admit that no one is hearing exactly what the player is hearing from his own gear. So, while this "tube sound" stuff is an interesting diatribe, there's probably little need for the vast majority of us to obsess over it. Personally, I think most players would benefit far more from exploring their own amp settings than they would from wringing their hands over "tube tone".

On the aspect of biasing and matching tubes, you could probably say the same thing. When I was doing amp repair and modification, I always found that selecting different tubes for a particular tone gave more rewards than fiddling with the bias of said tubes. Sure, you can eke out a little more by the tweaking, but there's a law of diminishing returns on what the audience is going to notice vs. the effort and expense put into the process, especially today. When I was doing that stuff, black-plate RCA 6L6's were $3.75.

On the aspect of piezo guitar pickups, I'm not crazy about their sound. acoustic guitar manufacturers are using them because they're dirt-cheap, and convenient. They'll never sound like a good guitar that's miked, but they do simplify the equation of getting the sound to an amp.

When you boil it all down, we're constantly at the mercy of some sound man at the gig, the "engineer" on a recording, an "engineer" at the studio, or a real engineer who's designing a particular amp. Sadly, none of them know exactly what we want. They're interested only in their own concerns.

Pity.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 5 Apr 2005 8:13 am

Dan made a good point. That 5% or so of THD (total harmonic distortion) that tube amps can typically create when running pretty clean is at the heart of the sound we all heard as we fell in love with the sound of the steel guitar. Donny stated that good tubes are hard to come by and may be even more difficult to find in the future. This statement may have been true about 10 years ago, but we are experiencing a full blown renaissance in tube abundance and quality these days. The demand for tubes in this cold, sterile, digital age has become huge. The audiophile nuts are using tubes everywhere. The recording studios can't get enough tube gear. Guitarists are buying tube amps, new and old. Tube guitar accessories are everywhere. The European tube factories are in high gear pumping out extremely high volumes of brand new tubes, many of which are now of excellent quality. We had a dead period from the mid '70s up into the '90s where good tubes were somewhat harder to find, but today, they're easier to find than good transistors.

With all the advances in audio and digital electronics, the serious musical listners and players have found themselves with more tube gear than ever. Most of the albums people buy today were recorded (partially) and mastered with the use of tubes. There is this middle ground with tubes that some people aren't aware of. Tubes can be run extremely clean in certain applications like hi-end audiophile stereos and studio recording gear. They can also be driven into a more distorted realm if desired. There's a huge range in between "clean" and dirty. Many shades of distortion. Even tube guitar preamps can be run quite cleanly if desired. For steel, this seems to be where some good things happen. For steel, I've found that I like tubes run real clean for that subtle but significant tonal enhancement. I think that the pull toward the entirely solid state rig was strictly out of the benefits of low maintenance and low mass, not out of tonal improvement. If I were recording steel, I'd take a Fender Twin over a Nashville 400 any day, and I'd venture to bet that in a blind test, that at least 90% of listeners would prefer the same.

Brad Sarno

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 5 Apr 2005 8:37 am

most players would benefit far more from exploring their own amp settings than they would from wringing their hands over "tube tone"

well put, Donny, or as us sound engineers always say, "The total tonnage of equipment required is inversely proportionate to the talent of the act supported."

I took my Randall Steel Man 500 out to a blues jam the other night with my '78 Pro I. I have only recently set aside my large and complex rack system for this little SS amp and have been exploring its capabilities. All I can say is when I pushed it hard it came out with the richest, deepest growl I could ever hope for. Yummy! Also many compliments on my tone from some really good guitar players (who were all playing vintage tube amps).

When I was playing bass for a living I was happy to switch from a SS rig to a huge thing with tubes (6440's ?) that put out a lot of juice, and the all-tube Ampeg SVT is STILL the one amp that will satisfy nearly every big-time bass player on the road today. I used a '54 tweed bassman with my steel for years and loved it's sounds a lot but after about 1980 I couldn't get enough power out of it to keep up with the rest of the band's new toys.

The two biggest problems for me with tube amps, however, have been (1) the tone controls on almost all guitar amps aren't centered at frequencies that do much to get what I want out of my steel and (2) most tube guitar amps run into distortion long before the necessary stage volume is reached - when I push down on the volume pedal, I want to hear the volume change, but NOT the tone -- and I absolutely loathe that extra harmonic noise that I hear descending against my ascending chordal slides (if you don't know what I mean, plug into most any tube guitar amp, play a C major chord at the third fret and slide up to a C major at the eighth fret and you'll hear another note which you DIDN'T play sliding DOWN at the same time). I just can't have that!

And by the way, not ALL sound engineers are oblivious to what steelers are striving for.
[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 05 April 2005 at 09:48 AM.]

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 5 Apr 2005 9:33 am

I must confess I am not as articulate as the rest of you guys, so bear with me.

I believe the tubes I use today are equal or better than any NOS I have tried. I now use JJ/Telsa exclusively. More and more tube business is blossoming every year. Even Grove tube opened up an old GE plant so we have made in USA tubes! I do not see tubes going away for a long time, if ever.

I love my old Session 400 and the old LTD. Never heard or liked a Nashville 400 sound, period. I like the new Nashville 112 and the Nashville 1000. When I am playing in my living room it is always a tube amp, period! I like the tone! Now that's just me. You can bet Buddy Emmons would sound just fine in my living room with a solid state amp. Matter of fact Buddy is welcome anytime, just come on over!

I played for 20 years thru Peavey solid state amps, primarily a Tele thru and LTD with Boss compressor! I was told over and over that was a great sounding tube amp! Little did they know!!! Matter of fact I would like to find another LTD 400, as that was a hell of a good Tele amp.

All I can is like a little of both. Personal taste has a lot to do with it for sure! We all have opinions and this is a great place to tell it all!
[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 05 April 2005 at 10:34 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 5 Apr 2005 9:54 am

Dave,

plug into most any tube guitar amp, play a C major chord at the third fret and slide up to a C major at the eighth fret and you'll hear another note which you DIDN'T play sliding DOWN at the same time)

If you are talking about the lower difference tone you can eliminate this by buffering your input. On Fender amps use the second input.

the tone controls on almost all guitar amps aren't centered at frequencies that do much to get what I want out of my steel

Try some radical knob twisting. On old Fenders I put the mids on 10, bass on 4 and treble on 4.

One of the great things about tube amps (paricularly class A) is finding the sweet spot where you can pull more out of the tone the harder you hit it. I set the amp to where it sounds best and is most responsive to my ear and let the PA do the work.

Donny,
Svetlana tubes are currently my favorite. Pretty cheap, sound great and easy to buy. We are in a golden age when it comes to availability and choice with tubes these days.

------------------
Bob
intonation help

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 05 April 2005 at 10:56 AM.]

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 5 Apr 2005 10:41 am

I'm runnin four 7581A's with a 12AY7 pre in place of the 12AX7.My mid. is always cranked and bass and treble some where near middle or less..Plenty of head-room and I love playin LOUD.Got that 15" BW bass speaker with a pieso sittin on top.Works for me..
P.J.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 5 Apr 2005 11:52 am

Dave, you mentioned that you were never able to get the Fender amps to work at the frequencies you wanted. Here's something I've seen, and of course it doesn't apply to everyone. The typical Fender Twin tone settings for steel with the treble in the 3.5-4 range will put the mid dip right at around 800Hz. This also seems to be the most common frequency that Peavey users choose for the dip point. Given it's EQ limitations, the Fender actually seems to be quite good at dialing in the most common steel curves.

Bob, you mentioned using the second, padded input on a Fender to help reduce or remove that strong beat (difference) harmonic. Cool tip. That can also be helped by switching the input tube to a 12AY7. My Twin doesn't have that problem at all. I do think that just a hair of that harmonic distortion is desirable. But then you get into issues of JI or ET tuning. Tube harmonics bring out the beats so a JI major 3rd is more tube friendly than an ET major 3rd. Can of worms....

Now to be fair, as much as I praise the tone of tubes, I've heard beautiful music coming from solid state setups. It's so easy to get obsessed with gear when we really should keep in focus that the tone originates from the hands. For example; Lloyd gets beautful tone from Fender amps and he chooses them for a reason. But when I hear Lloyd at a steel show playing thru a Peavey 400 or 1000, he still sounds fantastic. The tone may not be as nice as his personal rig sounds, but the music is the dominant factor. The tone quality differences don't prevent Lloyd from sounding wonderful.

Tubes make playing easier for me. With a sweet and harmonically rich tube tone, my basic-level steel playing sounds much prettier than when I play thru a SS rig. That alone makes me enjoy it more and also play better.

Brad

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Apr 2005 12:06 pm

To the original question, yeah, sure.

People have been predicting the demise of audio vacuum tubes since the 60s. Hah! Tubes keep rearing their ugly little heads because they sound good to a lot of people, especially guitar players. Ever listen to an electric guitar with normal high-impedance pickups through a very flat, clean amp like a modern solid-state stereo amp? Yuck. [Note: Something like a Les Paul Personal/Recording guitar with the low-impedance pickups is different - I had one of these and it sounded great, albeit very clean, through just about anything. That was the point of the low-impedance design.]

The point is that guitar amplifiers are usually part of tone generation, not purely for amplification. It comes down to what one personally likes. All amplifiers distort some, it's a matter of degree and character of distortion. A tone control 'distorts' the original signal, since it doesn't have a flat frequency response. There's also nonlinearity (harmonic) distortion, phase distortion, whatever. I think it's possible to make a lot of different technology work IF one has the hands and ears to make feedback corrections to one's technique and the guitar/effect/amp knobs with the goal to arrive at a pleasing result. But I think it's also clear that some sounds cannot be made with certain equipment.

Dave G., is this:

Quote: "I absolutely loathe that extra harmonic noise that I hear descending against my ascending chordal slides"

the same issue you were talking about in the Pod 2 vs. Pod XT thread (http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/006747.html)? I've noticed that on both tube and solid state amps, and I assume it's nonlinear distortion of some kind to produce a difference frequency much like the sound of a ring modulator. That type of distortion was really noticeable on the older solid-state amps like Thomas-era Voxes or old roll & tuck Kustoms. Bad crossover distortion on a push/pull pair sorta sounds like this also when pushed hard. I agree with Bob H. and generally buffer the input - a good compressor has high input impedance and a low output impedance, and a wee bit of compression also cuts the dynamic range a bit. I also use a 5751 tube in the first preamp-stage of old Fender amps, it just cuts the gain back a hair.

But I think it's interesting, the Line 6 people deliberately designed the Pods to emulate the real characteristics of tube amps, both good (i.e., the 'nice' distortion we say we like) as well as 'bad' (e.g., they could have removed some of the hum issues and difference-tones like this) to try to capture the sound of a real tube amp as closely as they could. Personally, I'd prefer if these folks gave us the option to discard the 'bad' sounds. In other words, I think amp companies may be too caught up with the 'real tube amp mojo' attitude (no doubt as a marketing ploy).

Keith Cordell · Post by **Keith Cordell** » 5 Apr 2005 12:23 pm

I am waiting for the right opportunity to get what is probably the best tube amp ever created for steel; the Fender "Evil Twin". Loud as an earthquake and on the clean side will stay clean almost forever- switch the input tube to an 12AT7 and you get a boatload of room before the distortion comes in. The tone and volume are more than you'll ever need on any stage, and they can be had for well under $700.

Post by **Joey Ace** » 5 Apr 2005 1:12 pm

First off, I'd like to comment what a great thread this is. Thanks to everyone.

Next, FWIW, my personal preference is tubes for lead guitar, solid state for Steel. Since I play both, I lug two amps to club gigs for that reason.

Finally, Ray Devoe's post, where he wondered about Lloyd's reasons for using tube amps, motivated me to contact my friend and ask for his comments.

Lloyd is very busy this week but still took the time to compose the following comments. I'd like to publicly thank him for sharing his thoughts.

Here they are:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
"This is a most informative and productive thread, really getting to the nuts
and bolts of sound and tone. I'll supply my reasoning for what I use in the
studios. I try to influence no one with my choices, only to please my ears
and heart.

From my very earliest recording sessions in Nashville starting in 1964, I
played a Sho-Bud D-10 and used a Fender Black Face Deluxe with 1 12" D-120F
JBL speaker. By 1968 I had "graduated" to a Fender Twin/w 1 15" JBL. Once we
recorded the "Live at Panther Hall" album with Charley Pride on which I used
a Twin/w 2 12" JBLs, I knew that was my sound. So, from 1968 until 1976
that's what I used, a Twin with 2 12" JBLs.
With the emergence of Sonny Garrish as the #1 session player in 1976, moving
Pete Drake and me to a lesser position along with Weldon Myrick and Hal
Rugg, I thought it was time to capitulate and join the Peavey ranks. That
was, for me, a big mistake. Never again would I have those crystalline,
crackling highs, the beauty of the breathing sound of the tubes, the
warmth.....And my career continued until 1988!
Fast forward now to....2003. When I decided to return to the recording arena

I thought I would be best served by returning to my roots, the sound that
got me there, Sho-Bud and Fender. My first tentative sessions, including the
Alan Jackson Christmas album where "the producer" deleted all of my good
solos except one marginal one, were cut with a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe/w 1 15"
JBL. Soon I was back to one 15" D130F JBL. I have remained there until a few
weeks ago when I finally made the decision to go with my 2 12" JBLs which
are in mint condition. I think I now have re-found the best steel sound I
ever had.

My Fender Twin is, as most know, a modified Twin head. The speakers are in a
separate cabinet, with the corresponding weights being 44 lbs. and 42 lbs.
This was a pragmatic choice because of the prohibitive weight factor of a
full Twin with JBLs weighing more than 90 lbs.!
The advantage of tubes over solid state for recording sessions are a simple
issue for me. I think they are warmer, with a modicum of intermodular
distortion that enhances rather than diminishing the tone. The solid state
amps have a harsh, too clean, nasally, mid-rangy sound that is offensive to
my ears, at least on records.
With this having come complete circle for me all future sessions you hear me
playing steel on are gonna sound decidedly better than "Remember When" or
anything else I've cut prior to going back to the 2 12" speakers. The one
exception may be the songs I've just cut with Steve Wariner on which I was
still using the single 15". This is some really cool stuff...and he let me
play.And it's Country.

Anyway, having very little time to totally digest this outstanding thread
(this is a busy week), and at Joey Ace's request I wanted to at least
superficially explain why I prefer tubes to solid states. And while there is
probably a great deal of truth in Donnie Hinson's statement that the
difference in tone/sound between the two may be more between the ears of the
player than the listener, a top pro is going to play better if he is
convinced his "sound" is of top quality. That edge, imaginary or real, will
show up in some future records I'm right now cutting.
While not adding anything of real substance to this quite profound topic,
for those who wanted to know why I use what I use, and without enough time
to give a more cogent reasoning, that's it in a nutshell.
Continue on with this thread. It is what makes the steel forum a truly
informational access, fulfilling what Bobby Lee probably hoped for and
intended at it's inception."

Best,
Lloyd Green

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>