Why 15" speakers for PSG?

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 22 Feb 2005 1:28 am

I notice that most steelers prefer the sound of a 15" speaker. Why? Because of better bass response? Why not a 4x12" cabinet? And why are Peavey Black Widow, JBL, Electro-Voice and other 'flat' sounding speakers preferred over guitar amp speakers like Celestion, Jensen, Eminence, etc?

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 22 Feb 2005 6:14 am

One reason is because of the .054/ and .068/.070 wound strings on the C6th neck. I don't think you would necessarily "need" to use a 15" speaker if you played only 10 string E9th. IMO.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 22 Feb 2005 6:24 am

I don't think you would necessarily "need" to use a 15" speaker if you played only 10 string E9th.

you might want to check with Lloyd Green about that...

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 22 Feb 2005 9:00 am

I'm with Dave and Lloyd and most other pedal steelers. Even with a 10-string E9 a 15" speaker sounds better. It has to do with the frequencies produced by steel guitars and the frequency response or "voice" of the speaker. Because a steel guitar is a solid body with a single body/neck piece, it is more rich in high mids and highs than a solid-body guitar. Also, we tend to play a lot between the 5th fret and the 17th, chords and as well as single string stuff. It all adds up to the need for a lower voiced speaker to mellow out the highs and mids and give the bass a boost. It shifts the whole EQ of the amp down. It's not about how much air is moved. You can use as many 12" speakers as you want, but you cannot reproduce that 15" voice. Even adjusting the amp EQ down somehow never gets it.

The differences between 15" speakers themselves is fairly subtle to me. I have JBLs, Eminence and EV. I can get great sound from all of them. The only exception is a new Jensen MOD that is modelled after British speakers. It has a chimey sound that I don't care for with pedal steel.

There are of course some notable pedal steel players who prefer 12" speakers (Buddy Cage, Dan Tyack, Robert Randolph), mainly because they believe they cut through the mix better with rock and blues groups. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 22 February 2005 at 09:01 AM.]

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 22 Feb 2005 9:14 am

Actually, a lot of steelers are switching over to 12 in. speakers as sales of the Peavey Nashville 112 demonstrate.

Many people think it sounds better than the Nashville 1000 and other 15 inchers.

Check for some of the comments by Bobby Bowman, Randy Beavers, and others.

The 15 inch speaker handles the low notes on the bottom neck with greater ease and allows more power: however, the 12 inch speaker response will give you better top end and will handle everything you need for E9th. (It also does pretty well on C6th and is, typically, a lot easier on your back).

I recommend you try out various configurations if possible before making a choice.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 22 Feb 2005 10:44 am

And why are Peavey Black Widow, JBL, Electro-Voice and other 'flat' sounding speakers preferred over guitar amp speakers like Celestion, Jensen, Eminence, etc?

Most steel pickers have spent too much time trying to find an amplification system that cleanly reproduces the sound of their instruments at all volumes. This is why you never (well, almost never anyway) read about how happy someone is with their awesome new Marshall amp on this forum.

Highly sought after "guitar" speakers such as the Celestion (and amps such as the Marshall) have a signature sound which comes from the audible harmonic distortion that they produce at relatively low power levels (a "good" thing for most electric guitar players and some no-pedallers, tragedy for many a pedal pusher). The Jensen and Eminence speakers also tend to go into distortion at an early stage but not as sweetly as the Celestion.

All of these "guitar" speakers are also far less efficient than the JBL, BW or EV, meaning that your amp has to be overdriven to get the volume that you desire, again, producing distortion that just plain ruins the sound of your fine 10 string instrument.

This harmonic distortion is most obvious when sliding upwards or downwards on more than one string -- you will hear a harmonic artifact moving in THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION as your fundamentals are going. Most of us don't want that.

Does this help to answer your query?

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 22 February 2005 at 10:48 AM.]

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 22 Feb 2005 10:57 am

The desirable steel guitar sound may not be obtained so much by the speaker size as it is by speaker design.
This is evident in the 12" Blue Marvel used in the Nashville 112.
Most 12" instrument speakers are designed for 6 string lead guitar.
Peavey has been a leader in designing speakers for specific instruments.
I do not mean to imply that Peavey is the ONLY manufacturer doing this, but the 12" Blue Marvel certainly made me sit up and listen.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 Feb 2005 2:04 pm

Why not a 4x12" cabinet?

In a word..."TOO".

Too big
Too bulky
Too heavy
Too expensive

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 22 Feb 2005 2:18 pm

I have used 4-12's for about 36 years now. I have tried playing with just 2-12's but it just doesn't have the sound I like. I built 2 closed back cabinets about 36 years ago and I put 2-12's in each cabinat. It saves on the back and I can stack them, which I usually do or I can seperate them. I put casters on one cabinet so it makes transporting them very easy with one on top of the other. I have used the same 4-12" Jensen speakers since I built the cabinets. Never have had a problem.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 22 Feb 2005 3:27 pm

It is a puzzle to me why some bass players love the 4x10 cabs and the steelers love the the 1x15 or 2x15 stereo steel.

It is all about sound. I like the sound of 15's. I can't justify it. I just like it.

Ron

Harold Parris · Post by **Harold Parris** » 22 Feb 2005 6:51 pm

I think the reason is tradition. Most players has the thought that you've got to use a 15" speaker. If you get the chance, try plugging a friend's 12" speaker of the proper ohms and wattage to your favorite amp that has been running a 15" speaker and test the differance.

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Sierra Session Guitar, EMCI Double 10 Guitar, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 HiVolt, and Gretsch Nashville Pro Steel Amps, Keith Hilton Digital Sustain pedal and Digital Sustain Box .
Harold Parris email hparris9@aol.com

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 22 Feb 2005 9:40 pm

I think using 15's is just something that has always been done and we are "creatures of habit." Not everyone is readily open to change. But, I must agree with comments being made here in reference to 12's. Not only with the combination of the Blue Marvel's in the Nashville 112's, but also the JBL's and BW's in the 12 inch arena. One has only to listen to Tommy White's sound and note that he prefers to use 12's. From my understanding, Paul Franklin Jr. as well has recorded with 12's and I would respectfully say he obtains a "massive range" in sound. Having had the oppurtunity to use BW 1203's because I stumbled upon a bargain for the pair, I was inpressed with the tone I was getting. Add to this the sound I found when I purchased my Nashville 112 and I decided I was happier using 12's. Just my 2 cents worth!
Dave

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 22 Feb 2005 10:19 pm

To each his own.But make mine 15's.I tried really hard to like the 12's.It started with my Twin Reverb.Factory JBL 12's.Switched them for a 15 JBL .Years later I got tired of lugging around Peavey 115 cabs.A friend of mine had a pair of the Peavey 112's for sale.I told him I'll take em.He said you want like them.I told him not to worry. I could EQ them to sound as good as the 15's.That never happened.So far the blue marvel is the best sounding 12 I've heard.But then I plug back to a 15 and that's where it's at for me.As for Paul and Tommy using 12's.They still both sound great.But to me.They sounded even better back when they used the 15's.To me the 12's just don't have the sweetness a 15 has.And no.I don't think it's tradition that keeps Lloyd Green using a 15.

To end this on a positive note.I do like the way 12's feel when your packing up at 3 in the morning. [This message was edited by Bobby Boggs on 22 February 2005 at 10:24 PM.]

David Higginbotham · Post by **David Higginbotham** » 23 Feb 2005 6:07 am

Bobby, I have to agree with you on several points. Personal preference is primary. I think we all have this sound in our heads that we want to hear. (The large echo inside mine is what bothers me

) And Lloyd, Tommy, and Paul could all play kite string tied to a mop handle plugged into a cardboard box and sound great!
Dave[This message was edited by David Higginbotham on 23 February 2005 at 06:08 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 23 Feb 2005 7:01 am

I Like them both.. I use a 1x15 cab,but in the past have used a Super Twin w/ 2 D 120's, and the BEST sound I have ever had was using 2 Twins or the Quad Reverb[4 12's] I owned for awhile.. Ever hear a GOOD Super Reverb for steel?.. beautiful.. and that amp has 4 10's.. Not enough headroom but the nicest tone you will ever hear. I'd love to have 2 Quad Reverbs[8x12] OR 4 Supers set up someday!!... I think any good amp with a 2 x12 or 1x15 cab is just fine.. Good tone depends on the amp, the steel, and the player... MOSTLY the player,not so much on the 1x15 or 2x12 speaker set up he chooses. bob

Geoff Brown · Post by **Geoff Brown** » 23 Feb 2005 9:02 am

I'm not a pedal-pusher, but I do play some lap and a lot of 6-string. One of the nicest pairings of speakers I've heard is a Celestion V30 with a Celestion G12H. The V30 is strong at the high-mids and high end, while the G12H is good for low-mids and low frequencies. Together, they provide a wide, balanced spread with a big sound. Mixing 12" speakers with different characteristics is a good way to find nice sounds, and with all the options available these days, it's worth looking at, IMHO.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 Feb 2005 10:00 am

Sorry, Harold and David H., it's not just tradition with all of us 15 lovers. I've tried it both ways. I've used a Twin with 2x12 and then disconnected those and plugged in an external 15. The 15 just sounded better. Also, I once played a gig where I was provided with a Fender Bassman 300 Pro. I wanted to try this 300 watt (six power tubes) all tube head with 10-band EQ. It had a 4x12 cabinet. I played through the stock cabinet for the first half of the gig. Then I switched over to my own Eminence single 15. Everybody in my group, and the sound guy, agreed the single 15 sounded better. It's not just the better lows. The highs are naturally rolled off nicely. But the main thing seems to be the sweeter balance between the high mids and low mids that the 15 provides. It just has a better mid-range "moan."

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 Feb 2005 10:17 am

Carvin makes an interesting looking 18" speaker. Anyone ever tried one of those. My suspicion is that it would be too muddy. But who knows. Maybe we need a speaker as big as the guitar's scale length.

David Wren · Post by **David Wren** » 23 Feb 2005 3:25 pm

Great topic. Recently I ran one cable from my stero-out Goodrich volume pedal to my Session 500 (15" BW), and the other to my new Fender Deluxe DSP 90 one 12" Celestion". I dialed in a thin mix on the Fender and a "throaty" mix on the Fender, using the Fender gains to mix in the highs... and the Peavey gains for the overall volume level. Not a bad sound. If I had to choose one amp, from my 34 years of playing steel, it would be the session 500, hands down, if your man enough to pack it around, which I may not be much longer.

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 24 Feb 2005 11:46 am

Bob C. I'm with you on the Super Reverb - also the old brown face Concert 4x10 (and also the early single 15" version) with the orignial outboard (also brown face) Fender reverb tank -- SWEEEET! But alas, not enough poop in either of them for stage use these days.

I've tried all sorts of speakers, from the above mentioned Fender 4x10's to the JBL 15" D130F to single and multiple two-way wedges (both with 15" and with 12" woofers) to multi-cab arrays and back once again to a single JBL 15". The larger speakers sacrifice the extended high end (which I really want some of) but those smooth lows keep me comin' back to ol' faithful.

Screw tradition (at least in this case) I just want to hear MY SOUND!

------------------
<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 24 February 2005 at 11:47 AM.]

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 24 Feb 2005 5:11 pm

Note to Dave Van Allen:

On the "Revisited" CD, Lloyd used a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe which is a 40 watt tube amp. The only modification being the stock 12" Eminence being replaced by a vintage JBL(also a 12"). In my opinion, the tone he achieves on that CD is some of his finest ever.

Al Terhune · Post by **Al Terhune** » 24 Feb 2005 11:59 pm

I've been tempted to get the 112, but my Nashville 400 and it's 15" speaker sound fine to me...especially with my Hilton and Black Box...and Bill Lawrence cables...and Jagwire strings...

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 25 Feb 2005 9:14 am

David N. Lloyd wanted me to correct something for this thread; he wrote to me saying:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>"Why 15" speakers for PSG" David Nugent posts that I used a vintage 12" JBL speaker with my Hot Rod Deluxe to record "Revisited". Obviously, and as you know, that didn't happen. I used my 15" JBL D-130F.
But I do have a Marrs cabinet that contains two D-120F 12" JBLs. I have them for back-up, but naturally the 15" sound much better in every aspect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And I agree of course.

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Ricky Davis

Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@austin.rr.com

David Nugent · Post by **David Nugent** » 26 Feb 2005 2:10 pm

My apologies to all for posting incorrect information. When I read the CD jacket on the "Revisited" recording, I erroneously assumed the speaker in the Hot Rod Deluxe had been replaced with another 12" unit. I shall attempt to be more certain of my facts before replying to any posts in the future.

Chick Donner · Post by **Chick Donner** » 28 Feb 2005 2:09 pm

Way back when, when I played Fender Twin amps on the road, I set one with a single 15 and the other with 2 12's. I eventually went to all 12's IN TWINS. In all my other amps (ShoBud Single channels and Webb 614-e's) (until a couple months ago when I bought a N112) I like 15's better.