Fender Vol/Tone Pedal tone issues

Steve Merritt · Post by **Steve Merritt** » 11 Mar 2005 2:48 pm

I have a Fender Vol/Tone pedal. I never noticed until recently how much my tone changes when I plug it in. There is some volume loss and over all loss of signal clarity, (regardless of where the tone pot is left side/right side/dead center). Is this common or is it just my pedal. I did replace the pots a year or so ago, is it possible that I somehow screwed that up or maybe soldered the capacitor assbackwards?

Robert Thomas · Post by **Robert Thomas** » 11 Mar 2005 3:52 pm

I used a Bigsby Vol/tone pedal from 1952 until not too long ago. I experienced the same thing. If you can afford it, get a Hilton, you will never regret it ever. What you get when you plug your Hilton pedal in is what your PSG is supposed to sound like!

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Mar 2005 5:00 pm

It's certainly possible you put the wrong value pot in the tone circuit, or the volume circuit, or both. You could have made a wiring error, too, or you could have used the wrong capacitor. Normally, tone pots in the circuit can affect the overall sound, that's why some guitars have a "tone control bypass switch", and why other players don't like tone controls of any kind between the guitar and the amp.

But the real issue here is not whether the pedal makes your guitar sound different when you plug it in, but whether or not you can still get the sound you want. Who cares if you have to turn a few knobs to make it sound the same after you plug in your pedal?

Keith makes a fine, trouble-free pedal, and many players use one. (I own one myself.) But the myth that a pot pedal "ruins your tone", or "sucks all the treble out" is just that...a myth. Anyone that listens to the great steel rides of the '60s, such as...

Brumley on "Together Again"
Emmons on "Another Bridge To Burn"
Weldon on "I'll Come Runnin"
Emmons on "A Way To Survive"
Mooney on "The Bottle Let Me Down"
etc., etc., etc.,

...will soon realize that these guys had great tone, and treble out the ying-yang! Far more, in fact than you ever hear today.

And they all used pot pedals!

(You see, that's all we had back then.)

But don't take my word for it. (I'm just a no-talent nobody.) Take the time! Go back and listen to those old records! And then draw your own conclusion. [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 11 March 2005 at 05:05 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 11 Mar 2005 5:59 pm

Yeah Donny, got that right!

John Daugherty · Post by **John Daugherty** » 12 Mar 2005 3:59 am

I agree with Donnie. I have been able to get an "acceptable" tone from any equipment I ever used (I do not play for my own amazement).
Back to the subject: I think your pedal is working as it should. I DO believe that you will hear a tone change when you put that type of pedal in line.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 12 Mar 2005 7:16 am

Everybody is looking for "that" tone that they remember from years back. And yet, they grab onto all the latest gizmos and gadgets on the market. "That" tone was obtained with a pot pedal, why not stick to that?
Erv

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 12 Mar 2005 7:35 am

Consider that most string/pot pedals I have seen do not utilize the full rotational sweep of the pot. You usually have to choose between sweep option A) 100% silent>>not fully on or B) slightly on>>100% on.
If you are falling short of fully open on the v or t pots you may be losing some signal/tone there. These are choices and adjustments that you can make. If you go for fully open on the tone pot I believe you will lose the bassiest part of the sweep and hence the impact of the wah. On the volume pot, I don't mind having the off position being slightly on. But on the other hand since you play with the v pedal at 50-75% for the most part, you are already in the tonal loss zone (if that is an issue---I, too, still use a pot pedal and have yet to be moved to ditch it for tonal reason although I don't rule out the possibility that one day I will moved to go potless.)

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 15 Mar 2005 5:05 am

Steve - What Jon said. Also, my Fender Vol/Tone pedal requires occassional adjustments. The strings that operate the pots can slip, and therefore the tone pot might not be full on treble when you sweep to the right. Try this: Take off the bottom cover plate. Twist your tone pedal so the it is all the way to the right for full treble. Then reach inside and twist your tone pot fully clockwise so that it also is on full treble. Likewise with the volume pedal and pot. These are the main problems that cause tone loss with these pedals. Mine works great, especially for those Speedy West doo-wah effects.

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 15 Mar 2005 7:43 am

The original pot that was in mine was a 250K.
I replaced that with a 500K which was better.

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 15 Mar 2005 9:19 am

The Original~Pots in the Fender V/T Pedal were both 250K Audio w/open back and an 0.5 cap. I have replaced them with 500K Audio-pots which work well and would match the Bigsby pedal. It always seemed to me as though the Fender pedal gave full-sweep on the pots, due to the large collars that were used for the cord. In any pot-pedal, the fatter the collar, the greater the sweep! When using a waffer~cap., it can be wired in either direction, but; with the old~style cylinder~cap., the ––[|–____+]–– ground~ring must be soldered to the Volume~Terminal #1. Backwards and the tone will not function. click here

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“Big John” Bechtel
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence

db · Post by db » 17 Mar 2005 7:45 pm

Yes, you have to match the impedance of pots to the impedance of the instrument!
You should start with the 1 to 10 ratio rule for the pots!
Example: If you are @ 10k at the instrument the pots should be at least 100K.
(But, if are "active" before the pedal (w/pre-amp):
you can be much lower like @ 25K, 10k or even 5K.)
The volume pot should be "audio" taper and you can go with a slightly higher ratio,
250k will work with 10k instrument. . . But, you should only go up higher if you have a very beefy high impedance Humbucker.
The tone pot should be "linear" taper and can be lower than this,
50k will also work well for a 10k impedance instrument.
If you still have a "tone shift" problem with the volume control,
you can add a 100 pf to .001 uf cap from the top of the pot to the wiper,
to avoid loss in high frequency response.
But, usually the tone shift is caused by an impedance miss-match.
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 20 March 2005 at 03:25 PM.]

db · Post by db » 20 Mar 2005 3:19 pm

I have also seen pedals with too many turns of control string around the volume shaft pulley. This will cause an incorrect actuating ratio . . . "String over string", making the pulley diameter too large.
There should be only one complete turn here!
More will keep the pot from "opening up" all of the way.

------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3

db · Post by db » 20 Mar 2005 3:31 pm

Donny,
I wish that Keith Hilton would make a VOLUME/TONE PEDAL!
That would be monumental !
This type of pedal has not been made in many years!
We all have to buy an old thing . . .
and rebuild it to get it to work . . .
and do regular maintance to keep it going.
------------------
Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 20 March 2005 at 03:40 PM.]

db · Post by db » 20 Mar 2005 4:05 pm

I have been negotiating with Fred Gretsch for a number of years about acquiring the inventory and licensing for the Bigsby "Volume/Tone" pedal.
He initially wanted 5 figures!
We started taking about a "By Piece" pricing on parts . . .
But, I have had a lot of things going on at the "home-front" and had to drop out.
My initial estimate would put the price of the thing well above $300 !
As the parts & labor costs are pretty high . . .
(That's a long way from the 1965 price of $65 ! )
But, with inflation (using an online "inflation calculator"), it should be price at $385!
Part of the problem is the "Demand-Factor".
I have tried putting out "feelers" to see what the demand potential could be . . ?
I still have this project on my "To-Do"-"Wish-List" . . .
And after the "dust-settles", I will look into it again.

My thoughts about the re-release of the Bigsby is to have it be more like the Edwards ( or Hilton ). . . With an optical control systems instead of pots,
(that go bad and must be replaced.)
The other thing that I would add is : multiple functions . . .
To have the swivel change the tone of course . . .
But, have it be an "active system" that would allow it to be adjusted to come closer to a "Wha" function, if desired.
Also, the ability to have the "swivel" be an "expression pedal controller" !
(This is primarily how I use them, with multi-effect pedals.)

BTW . . . I have 3 Fenders, 2 Edwards and 2 Bigsbys.
I built my minimum requirement: "Favorite Effects" right into one of the Bigsby pedals ; an Electro Harmonics "Holy Grail" Reverb and a DanElectro "Peanut Butter & Jelly" Dual delay (switchable between a "pre-set" short "slap" & longer delay).
Great for rehearsals or jams!
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Dan Balde
U-12/8&5, S-7/D 3&1, S-6/E,A & G3[This message was edited by db on 20 March 2005 at 04:40 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Mar 2005 4:28 pm

Dan, I just don't think there's much demand for V/T pedals today. The old "Doo-Wah" effect gets old pretty fast.

I'm sure Keith could be persuaded to come up with one if the market was there. As it is, though, I suspect there's only a few dozen players who would spend $300 or more to get one.