what's go first Blackbox or Hilton pedal

Peter de Smet · Post by **Peter de Smet** » 12 Dec 2004 5:00 am

What is the best way to get the best sound. Is it better to set the Blackbox right after the PU and than the Hilton volume pedal, effectunit ,amp or visaversa?

By the way, i'm very happy that I own this two great devices.
thanks.

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Zumsteel D10, Mosvalve 1500, Kendrick 4212, Tubefex, Blackbox, Hilton volume pedal

Leland Ogle · Post by **Leland Ogle** » 12 Dec 2004 5:44 am

I have had great results with the Black Box before the Hilton Pedal. I think that is how Brad said to do it at St Louis.
Lee

Bob Lawrence · Post by **Bob Lawrence** » 12 Dec 2004 7:24 am

From Brad's web site:

The Steel Guitar Black Box is a true, audiophile quality, vacuum tube pickup driver (buffer/impedance matcher) especially designed for enhancing the tone of steel guitar pickups. It is placed directly after the guitar and before the volume pedal.

http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/blackbox.html

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Dec 2004 8:34 am

The reason Brad built the BB was for it to have a direct pickup to tube interaction,
with no impeadence changes from the pedals.

So yes, 1st is the BB, I bet your gonna LOVE IT!

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Dec 2004 2:27 pm

Brad is a good guy. Honest, smart, and a straight shooter. I like Brad. I am getting some good reports on Brad's Black Box. Yesterday, Terry Bethel of The Famous Mel Tillis Band, told me he really liked using his black box. Terry is a great player and is known for being very particular about his sound. My pedal will input either a magnetic pickup signal or a pre-amped signal.
The best thing to do is try different hookup combinations and let your own ears be your guide. Most steel players have an effect unit in line also. Where it is at in the chain makes a difference also. Some effect units are only designed for a low level signal coming from a magnetic pickup. Some are not designed for a pre-amped stronger signal. An example of this would be the small effect unit: "The Holy Grail Reverb". Input a pre-amped signal into this unit and you get crazy noises.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 12 Dec 2004 2:32 pm

Sorry I did not say hello Bob. My electronic buddy in Canada. Bob, still taking classes on the Basic Stamp 2. I give a project presentation in class tomarrow, then wednesday is our final exam. By the way Bob,
go to www.parallax.com they have everything. They have great technical service and also have a micro-controller forum. The forum is:
forums.parallax.com. Bob, trust me, you will like this electronics form. Your friend down here in "lap land" Keith Hilton

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Dec 2004 3:32 pm

Brad has told me the output of the BB is only very slightly hotter than straight out of the pickup.
i.e. a very direct aproximation of just what signal your steel is giving out.

So it is not as if it is pre-amped to create a line signal for an amp, etc.

His aim, again, is to have the push-pull of a tube with the pickup in as close a connection as possible.

Then you follow with the great Hitlon pedal,
which changes none of the great sound the BB coaxes out of your pickup.

If your effects unit is right after the BB, it will likely be quite happy,
and also if it is after the Hilton too.

Brad, Keith and Jerry with his TT pickups,
have done wonders for the modern sound of the steel[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 12 December 2004 at 03:58 PM.]

Peter de Smet · Post by **Peter de Smet** » 13 Dec 2004 4:14 am

Thanks everyone for the reply's.
When I set the Hilton before the BB I hear that the sound is not so fat anymore but the mids are better. When I set the BB before the Hilton the nice fat sound is back and I have more brilliance. Keith, that is what my ears hear. I think that I shall use both ways depending on where I playing.

I'm agree with these words,

Brad, Keith and Jerry with his TT pickups,
have done wonders for the modern sound of the steel

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 13 Dec 2004 9:38 am

I really like Brad's invention. It really works for me. I've played in a place every week for over a year, by myself. The owners hear it every week so they are VERY familiar with the sound. When I first used the black box they said it just filled up the room with a sweeter, fuller, nicer sound. I really like it before the Hilton Pedal. I am now trying a fullton distortion unit and I think I like it better before the Black Box but it works either way. [This message was edited by W Franco on 13 December 2004 at 09:39 AM.]

Bob Lawrence · Post by **Bob Lawrence** » 13 Dec 2004 11:31 am

Keith,

Good luck with the Basic Stamp 2 presentation and exam. In another post you were asking
if the folks were using the Basic Stamp 2 or PIC. You can read the article below that explains that a BASIC Stamp 2 is a preprogrammed Microchip 16C56 PIC controller and a serial EEPROM.
http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/robotics/stamp-decode.html

I use PIC's because Microchip offers so many different feature rich types of PIC's. They are also very robust and very inexpensive. In regards to www.parallax.com I purchased the Javelin Stamp™ module (24-pin DIP) over a year ago and am very familiar with fine products they offer. I just have way more options with PIC's. Enjoy! your Xmas. I have about 7 different PIC projects in the works and loving it.

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Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 13 Dec 2004 12:38 pm

Wayne, that's interesting. I've found too that there are a couple of fuzz boxes that seem to sound best before the Black Box. Something about the pickup being able to directly interact with the fuzz pedal instead of the Black Box driving the fuzz. As long as the fuzz has a true-bypass switch, it should be fine to do it first that way with no risk of tone loss.

Brad

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 13 Dec 2004 2:53 pm

Brad, Do you have a short list of common pedals that are True-Bypass?
My understanding is that all Boss pedals are NOT True-Bypass (meaning that even in the Off position, the unit colors the tone, though possibly in a good way in some cases).
Just curious.
Thx,
Pete B.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 13 Dec 2004 4:09 pm

Hi Pete, I don't have a list. It seems that most any boutique pedal these days is TB (true bypass). The Boss pedals use electronic switching instead of the mechanical latching type. Many older pedals use SPDT mechanical switches which are not true bypass. That means that when the pedal is bypassed, part of the circuit of the pedal is still in contact with your hot signal, and that means it can suck highs away and maybe do even weirder things. The TB switches are DPDT so that the circuit is completely isolated from your signal when bypassed. The Boss pedals, even though electronically switched, seem to be pretty close to a true bypass as far as not sucking tone when bypassed, maybe not as good as a mechanical TB switch though. Most wah pedals and old MXR pedals are not TB. Rat pedals are TB. Most any old pedal that's not TB can be converted to TB with a $7 switch that's easily available from Mojotone or Antique Electronic Supply or many others. Fulltone sells their switch thru lots of vendors.

Brad

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 13 Dec 2004 6:24 pm

Bob,the only draw back, you have to write code for those PIC controllers one bit at a time. That is OK for expert code writers like you and our moderator BOB. I need all the help I can get writing code. I know the Basic Stamp stuff is expensive. Actually the SX stuff from Parallax is not all that expensive. My presentation was on a guitar tuner with LCD frequency read out. I also had a volume control using the BS2, an A/D chip, and DS1804 digital pot.

Peter de Smet · Post by **Peter de Smet** » 14 Dec 2004 4:07 am

Brad, the story about true bypassed is very interesting.I use a old Ibanez TS-10 Tubescreamer, can you tell me if this pedal is true bypassed?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Dec 2004 7:14 am

Peter, I just opened my 2nd generation TS-9DX Tube Screamer.
It is Single Pole and only attached to the circuit board,
that would indicate non discrete.
I would put it after the BB.

I beileve Cindy Cashdollar uses hers on the opening cut of Slide Show,
after the volume pedal so she can fade up into a grittier tone.

And that is one sweet cut with Sonny Landrieth.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 December 2004 at 07:16 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 14 Dec 2004 8:38 am

Peter, I'm not sure on that one.

Brad

Al Moss · Post by **Al Moss** » 14 Dec 2004 1:11 pm

If I may be permitted to drift back in with a response to the original thread for a moment, please let me chime in and report , that , after an exhaustive and carefully controlled (..interfering with some important beer consumption) experimental session of ABing the BB and the Hilton, I shall report that I hear more "tube sag" - sometimes referred to as "tubiness", (not to be confused with "tubbyness") and softer highs when the BB follows the Hilton in the signal chain. And.. I like the way that that combo sounds. One of the things that first interested me in the Black Box was the reference to Lloyds tone on the Panther Hall record and with this signal chain I can hear a bit more of that kind of tonal quality emerging. That "tubey" kind of thing seems to happen even a bit more when the BB goes before a Goodrich, volume pot pedal. Also, I'm playing this stuff into a Webb, with a D-130. [This message was edited by Al Moss on 14 December 2004 at 01:22 PM.]