Recording Question

Spriggie Hensley · Post by **Spriggie Hensley** » 19 May 2004 12:37 pm

I have a Boss 864 recorder with an Audio Technica AT3035 large condenser mic. I have tried direct recording and that suck’s so here is where I need your help. To buy a pre amp like Peavey Tubefex or the Nashville 1000 stand alone amp to get the preamp and record direct. I am not after the old tube type sound just a good recording level for some home recording fun. Thank you, Sprig

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 19 May 2004 1:46 pm

I just did a bunch of recording using a Peavey Nash 112, then XLR out to the recorder. Sounds great. If you don't need a 1000 consider the 112 as your preamp.

Also - Some people use things like the Line6 POD as well. ie: amp simulators - there's a bunch of those to choose from these days. Beheringer makes a cheap one that sound pretty good.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 May 2004 2:08 pm

Spriggie..a nice low end tube preamp will serve you well..there are several 12AX7 preamps in the $100 and under catgagory which will yield nice results as well.

Question for ya..Does the 864 not have an board Guitar/Bass effects patches? I have a very old Boss BR8 and recorded direct all the time using the on board processors..I did edit them for EQ, Compression, Delay etc..

I also record direct very often with my newer Yamha 16 tracker using the on board effects processors and editing them for the Steel and for the Tele..

I do also use a ART dual 12ax7 preamp for all recording which adds a nice warmth to the digital signal chain .

Maybe go back and take a look at the on board patches for guitar, take out a bunch of mids, add some lows and a tad of hi's..add a little compression and some slap delay around 280ms and see if it's not closer. Most of the on board patches are very strong in the mids which for Steel will kill it for sure. I'm pretty certain with a little tweaking you can achieve some nice results, these are nice little machines.

good luck
t

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 May 2004 4:20 pm

The Digitech Genesis 3 may be all you need. It isn't made anymore, but you can probably find one used for about $125. It has a digital output jack that works well with digital recorders.

The Genesis 3 emulates all sorts of amps and has some nice built-in effects. There are a number of Forum members using them, so you can get steel-specific support right here.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Graham Bland · Post by **Graham Bland** » 19 May 2004 6:00 pm

Bobby Lee is correct, I recorded Buddy Emmons playing through one last year in St. Louis...all I can say is AWESOME !!!!!!!

Spriggie Hensley · Post by **Spriggie Hensley** » 19 May 2004 6:37 pm

Thank you to all for your input, I really do appreciate the time you take to reply. I will look into each idea and let you know which way I go, most likley "South". (smile)

Tony,
The 864 has onboard Guitar/Bass effects patches, however no volume to work with. It works great for guitar, bass and mic but not steel direct. I tried a direct out amp but to much hum and side noise.

I really need to hear myself playing with effects, I just can't get the feeling into a dry recording.
Respectfully, Sprig

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 May 2004 3:58 am

Spriggie, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by " No Volume to work with "..I don't think any effects patches have any Volume control, unless it is accomplished thru increased gain with the EQ patches.

Setting the input level( trim) and the recording level for Steel is an art all by itself..it just take a little bit of experimenting...but you can achieve good success..

IF you can get a good vocal sound..I can almost guarantee that you CAN get a good Steel sound. As long as you can edit the EQ'S and patches that would be the first step. I am pretty certain that most engineers will speak that vocal recording is pretty much the most difficult to achieve.

Regardless of which input preamp you use , or which amp/mic combination, the volume pedal thing is still gonna be the primary issue with recording Steel guitars..at least in my view...and especially on digital recorders.

With your digital recorder..do not use 0 DB as your standard reference as we all did with analog..experience and recommendations by the pros' have said to use -5 DB or -6Db as the reference point. You cannot exceed 0 DB in the digital domain. Set your max input levels so that 0 DB is the highest peak.

Now ,recording Steel is very difficult with volume at first anyway..amp or direct..Volume pedal technique really shows it's ugly face during recording thats for sure.

good luck
t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 20 May 2004 at 05:01 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 May 2004 10:55 pm

It seems very odd you can't get enough output level from a steel...

Usually they are hotter than a guitar or bass when direct.
10 string pickups vs only 6 or 4 string pickups.

If you have a good amp the AT3035 should record that acoustically just fine.

Spriggie Hensley · Post by **Spriggie Hensley** » 21 May 2004 8:44 am

Maybe it's this 864 recorder but if I go direct with no effects full gain and full input there is no volume to speak of even direct from the guitar. From Tonys advice I tried the cosm gtr amp, I can get the volume level up with cosm using preamp but can’t seem to get that good amp sound. So far the best is to mike my amp but as you know the noise problem with that. I am looking into a computer software program for recording as I think my problem is I do not like the Boss 864 for pedal steel. I can get some good stuff with Dobro, Bass, and Guitar but not Pedal Steel. From all your guy’s help it appears to me that most of you are using a preamp of some type for effects and volume gain, and the recorder is just a means of editing and mixing, is that a fair assessment of what is going on? Thank you guy’s for all the help, I think this is a closed issue now. Sprig

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 27 May 2004 5:06 am

Just thinking about this once again..A friend came over yesterday with a very small Boss 4 Digital Tracker..544 I think.....I plugged in the Tele and the Steel , both very good overall sound.Actually very nice !

Are you sure it's not the output levels that are giving you grief ?

Set the input trim so that the RED LED just barely flashes at MAX Steel volume....then set the input gain so that the record level is just below 0DB on the little LED meter scale....The input trim calibrates the Steel input to the Recorder. The Input gain is what allows signal to be recorded on the recorder. DO not confuse the two..and keep in mind that these are recording levels and not ouput listening levels..do not confuse the two..then set the master output gain to the monitor amp up to 0DB as well ( way up ) ..there should be a ton of level..the Steel will blow away Electric Guitars on the input gain side of things everyday..

And you didn't say whether or not you were playing the Steel along with another track already playing..it may be possible that the volume on the other track(s) is just way too loud as well..if this is the case, bring those tracks down in volume..

Also if you are using headphone outputs on these small machines they are deceiving..I have found them to be less than accurate on the small recorders..especially Boss machines.The headphone output preamps are probably the weakest thing on the small low end recorders..You may have to not go above 3/4 headphone volume and roll the other track volumes way down..the listening level will not be very loud but may be more accurate in the total picture.

This doesn't make any sense about the volume thing being low on the Steel.

The reason I posted this again is that my friend who brought his recorder over was very confused about this stuff as well and was not setting the inputs at all..just turning knobs until he heard something..

Maybe take another look at things...

good luck buddy..

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 27 May 2004 at 06:12 AM.]

Spriggie Hensley · Post by **Spriggie Hensley** » 27 May 2004 6:13 pm

Hi Tony,
That’s my problem I can not get the Red light to flash! I think I have my problem solved by using the preamp out from my amp I get all the volume I need. My buddy brought over his Peavey Proflex II and a killer sound came out on the recording. My whole thing is down to the preamp is a must with this BR-864 recorder. As of now I am happy with the sound I am getting and also the volume is good as I have to cut back on sensitivity and input level when recording with preamp out.

I do agree that head phones are deceiving and a little hard to work with as what you hear is not what comes out.

Just to clarify and hope you understand it’s like this for me, I plug in the pedal steel direct to the BR-864 guitar input crank the sensitivity and input full up, No Red Light and no volume to speak off (meter is less than half), if I use a cosm amp I get more volume but no Red light. Now with same settings on recorder I unplug the steel and plug in the fender bass or Srat the Red light is full on dry.

Yes I don’t get it either as I have a George-l E-66 less than a month old. I must conclude that it is the recorder as I have made some good recordings with it and just have to fuss a little over the steel but I think I am ok now but not without the help I got here on the forum, you should hear some of the answers I got at the local music store. Ha thank you for the extra input it is appreciated. Sprig

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 May 2004 12:13 am

Hey Sprig..good news..glad to hear you have it under control..or at least getting there..

AS mentioned way above, I have been using an ART 12AX7 Preamp for all Instruments now and it really has made a nice difference, but I never really had the low signal level issue that you are dealing with.

and yes..I too am amazed at what some of the local store experts (at 17 years old) tell me in discussions as well. But now that I think of it my 18 year old daughter is pretty much an expert on life and everything that surrounds it as well..Just have a conversation with her..you'll learn everything you need to know..and get the ANSWER to everything..But I still love her...

good luck

have fun

t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 28 May 2004 at 01:17 AM.]

Spriggie Hensley · Post by **Spriggie Hensley** » 28 May 2004 8:48 am

Yes, God bless Son's and Daughters don't you just love life threw their eyes. I just wish I was 17 again when I had all the answers.
Sprig