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Topic: 3chord pedal hookup |
Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Allan Thompson
From:
Scotland.
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 6:05 am |
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Larry,
I tried the three lead set up, didn`t like it. I set up the same way you do.
Push Pull Emmons to Hilton volume pedal to Nashville 400 amp. |
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Jon Light (deceased)
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 6:10 am
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| If I'm not mistaken (big if), both of you are already using impedance matching devices (Steel Driver, Hilton pedal) that make the 3 cord rig redundant and unnecessary. |
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Larry Robbins
From:
Fort Edward, New York
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 6:23 am
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You are NOT mistaken Jon! 
My question was more to see how many others found this hook-up more pleasing to the ear!
I found quite a lot of difference between the two hook-ups inspite of the fact that they are both impedence matching devices.
Thanks.
------------------
Sho-Bud ProII
"there's been an awful murder, down on music row!"
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 8:09 am
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Jon,
You are correct.
The soul purpose for the three cord set up is to allow the full signal from the PU to reach the amp without the mismatch of the voulume pedal, or other devices.
This insures that NO attenuation, or distortion, or roll of certain frequencies, is introduced from the PU to the amp.
The anamoly here; and why some prefer it one way versus another was explained a while back when a question was asked,
"Why do the old 8" inch tube amps sound better than the new powerful transistor amps?"
The answer is quite simple. IF one takes the raw sound from a steel guitar and amplifies it flat, IE, NO change (save level) to the sound, MOST will not like it.
Without us realizing it, our ears become accustomed to hearing sound amplification fraught with built in problems. We get used to it. When those problems are remedied with ever higher fidelity equipment, like matching devices, many will say "I like the old better". What is happening is, the new equipment uncovers ALL the sounds the guitar is putting out. The older equipment masked it more or less.
This is why some do not like to use 3 cables. Putting a NON matching type volume pedal between the PU and the amp causes highs (and some mids) to roll off; meaning they are not heard in the speaker or are greatly attenuated. This is particularly true when it comes to overtones.
When you use a 3 cord setup on the other hand, you will hear these highs, certain mids and a slew of overtones that the guitar is actually putting out, and as is witnessed here, some do not care for them. And this is fine. To each his own.
However, IF you want to amplify the total sound coming off the guitar's PU, you MUST use either a 3 cord setup; OR a matching device of some kind between the PU and the amp.
carl |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 10:43 am
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In the 1980's when I first bought a Sesssion 500 I used the recommended three-cord hook-up for awhile.....but eventually reverted back to two cords because I was unable to "hear" enough difference at bandstand volume to bother with hooking up the extra cord.
However, those three cords sure did look cool and because of that I think they may have been perceived by some players as being more of an improvement than they actually were!
www.genejones.com |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 15 Feb 2004 5:37 pm
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| Moved to 'Electronics' section |
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Ron Randall
From:
Dallas, Texas, USA
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Posted 16 Feb 2004 8:54 pm
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Hey, ain't it great that Peavey gave us the option?
Ron
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Mike Brown
From:
Meridian, Mississippi USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2004 8:01 am
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Carl Dixon is exactly correct with his explanation. It seems that when a problem occurs, we sometimes find a way to "work around it" instead of resolving the problem itself. The Peavey 3 cord hookup is not a "bandaid". It solves the problem should you choose to use it.
Mike Brown
Peavey Electronics Corporation |
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 17 Feb 2004 11:11 am
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I use three cords, and like if for no other reason than that I never found a way to use the steel driver that I liked. If I bumped the signal up, I got too much volume coming through the pedal... couldn't get it near "full off", which I like it to be when I roll back.
Second advantage to three cords is that if I'm plugging more than one thing in, i.e. pedal steel and lap steel at the same time, I can just use one volume pedal. You can always roll the highs back off on the eq if you want to... |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 17 Feb 2004 11:49 am
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(Mike)....The Peavey 3 cord hookup is not a "bandaid".....
I didn't have a problem, I just didn't think the 3-cord hookup improved anything. Assuming by your reply that you use (or did use) the 3 cord hookup...what problem did it solve for you?
www.genejones.com
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Nicholas Dedring
From:
Beacon, New York, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2004 10:12 am
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Gene, were you already using a matchbox type device in your chain?
If so, as Jon said above, the three-cord setup would not have made a difference. I do hear a change when I go with three cords on the S400LTD. It's just sort of crisper, more bite to the sound. |
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Gene Jones
From:
Oklahoma City, OK USA, (deceased)
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Posted 18 Feb 2004 10:33 am
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No, I did not use a Matchbox util about ten years later. I only used the amp reverb.
www.genejones.com |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 18 Feb 2004 12:06 pm
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The 3 chord hookup helps give the same EQ balance over the whole range of the volume pedal. Over your playing range, there might not be much difference. If you change your volume on the amp between playing a gig and playing at home, your playing range on the volume pedal may be similar, and you might not notice a difference with the 3 chord hookup. However, if you leave your amp volume wide open, and try to play quietly at home by backing way off on the volume pedal, the highs will sound muffled without the 3 chord hookup. At least that was my experience in the past.
I use a Hilton pedal now, so don't have this problem. But with some pickups and guitars (and amps) I have to use the Hilton's tone control to cut back the highs a little. That's just a matter of taste and preference. [This message was edited by David Doggett on 18 February 2004 at 12:07 PM.] |
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Tim Rowley
From:
Pinconning, MI, USA
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 12:11 pm
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Having a conventional pot-type Emmons crossbar-mount volume pedal on my LeGrande II, I generally use the 3-cable hookup with either my Nashville 400 or Session 500 amplifiers. This does make these amps sound fuller in the lower frequencies. And here's another advantage: if the pot in your pedal is beginning to get a little "scratchy", you won't hear the scratch with the 3-cable hookup.
By the way and FWIW (most of you probably already know this), the 3-cable setup doesn't work well with all amplifiers, notably my Peavey Bandit 112. My steel guitar keeps the preamp stage of the Bandit overdriven all the time if I try to patch the volume pedal into the loop circuit. But it sounds fine when hooked up in the conventional manner.
Tim Rowley |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Feb 2004 1:00 pm
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| Quote: |
| I didn't have a problem, I just didn't think the 3-cord hookup improved anything. |
That's an astute observation, and totally true if you're using single-coil pickups, a good amp, and good cords. I've heard dozens of steelers remark that you need matchboxes or amplified pedals to get a good sound, so I'll make this statement just for all the "newbies". All of the steel recordings made in the early-to-mid '60's had beautiful tones, with wonderful highs (far better than you hear today), and absolutely none of 'em used either of these devices! (Think of early Emmons, Brumley, and Mooney recordings. Did any of them lack highs?)
But...if you saddle yourself with today's high-impedance humbucking pickups, or an anemic amp, you'll probably find these extra gimmicks necessary to get a good sound.
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Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 8:50 am
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This is really dumb, but what are you guys talking about? Would someone please take pity on me and elaborate on what the "3 chord pedal hookup" is? I know you all aren't talking about B minor in the key of G.
FWIW, I seem to get a decent tone with two cords, Steel>Hilton>Amp. |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 10:36 am
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Gerald,
The term "3 cable set" as used by steel players began when Peavey came up with a way to get around the volume pedal causing a deterioration of sound at different levels.
If I am not mistaken, their Session 500 was the first amp to do this. In essence here is what happened:
Instead of placing the vol pedal between the guitar and amp using a single cable, you go direct with ONE cable.
Then you take the SECOND cable on go FROM your amp TO your vol pedal.
Finally you take the 3rd cable and go FROM your vol pedal back TO the amp. Peavey provided two extra jacks marked "FROM" and "TO" to make this simple to hook up.
When they included this great feature into other amps they labeled it "effects loop" rather than "pedal". Because effects units placed between the guitar and the amp MAY, I repeat MAY cause some degradation of sound.
However, what causes all the hoopla over it, is evident in most of the posts in this thread. Hopefully with this explanation, you can go back and understand what has been said, and more importantly in some cases why.
May Jesus guide you in your quests,
carl |
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Gerald Menke
From:
Stormville NY, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 12:14 pm
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Dear Carl,
Thanks a lot for the explanation. I have never used a Peavey amp for the steel (I am a thermionic emmission process addict). Your explanation was very clear and helpful.
Gerald |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 27 Feb 2004 2:51 pm
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| In which chain do you hook up your stomp boxes? |
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C Dixon
From:
Duluth, GA USA
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Posted 28 Feb 2004 10:01 am
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Gerald,
I am with you too. Only problem is my heater is fast growing dimmer and as such my cathode is no longer thermionically heated high enough to emit anything let alone how it used to bombard my dinner plate (or others ) at suppertime.
Richard,
Unless you have a matching device between your guitar and the amp; such as a Goodrich or Hilton, it is best to always put your stomp boxes in the effects loop. Again, this ensures that the amp "sees" exactly what is coming off the PU, IF for no other reason than to improve the signal to noise ratio.
carl |
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