Can a Deluxe be as loud and clean as a Twin?

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 14 Dec 2003 12:18 am

I wonder if I could get some opinions form the Fender lovers out there.

I've been playing an S10 with a Rock band.
I use a '65 Deluxe Reverb or a '74 SF Pro Reverb. Both are loaded with the factory speakers.
We play in small to medium size clubs. Guitar, bass, drums and me
Both of these amps sound awesome in my studio at home, but in clubs with the band both amps have too much distortion ( albeit nice sounding distortion) once they're loud enough.
I'm thinking I've got to bite the bullet and start lugging a Twin around- but the dimensions of the Deluxe are perfect.

Is there a way to soup up a RI Deluxe and put a 12JBL in it to cover in place of a twin?

Does anyone sell such a thing?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 14 Dec 2003 12:39 am

Yes, a Deluxe can be as loud as a Twin, but a Twin can be louder.

Tyler Macy · Post by **Tyler Macy** » 14 Dec 2003 12:53 am

There is no substitute for the big iron in a twin. The headroom is FAR greater than any deluxe, souped up or not. Ever look at the trannies in a twin...?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Dec 2003 3:39 am

LOL..Earnest..very profound..

If you turn the volume knob of the Twin down to say "3"..then yes, the DLX RVB can be as loud as the Twin..but never as clean...

But goodnight Irene..

I've heard rumours that the Twin's have been know to be outlawed due to manslaughter..

1st three rows get out of the way...

T

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 14 Dec 2003 5:02 am

No dice, David. I upgraded my Deluxe (rebuilt '68 I think) with a very loud/efficient Weber California 12, 6L6 tubes and a copper cap solid state rectifier. The increase in volume and headroom was not insignificant but there is just no comparison with the Twin. Unless I decide that the weather sucks too bad to take out the new rig, I'll get my first demonstration of this tonight. I was ecstatic about the sound of the Deluxe the first night out, then for the next two gigs I ran into the reality that I was pushing it into the marbles entirely too much of the time. Absolutely beautiful blues/rock tone. Just not acceptable for country or swing. Like Tyler says, the iron in the Twin/Showman is of Buick proportions. Tweaking the Deluxe gets you a few more miles per gallon but it won't take you to the moon.

Chris Bauer · Post by **Chris Bauer** » 14 Dec 2003 6:32 am

Wasn't 'getting a Deluxe as loud as a Twin' more or less the beginning of the Mesa Boogie amps?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 14 Dec 2003 6:59 am

loudness=power.

It is that simple. NO way can you get the same power from 2 output tubes as you can 4. While you won't get twice the power (eddy current and other intrinsic losses accepted), the power does increase dramatically if you double the amount of output tubes.

carl

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Dec 2003 7:39 am

If you mike the Deluxe and run it through a large PA it can be much louder than a Twin. Otherwise, it's just arithmetic. Even a Twin has a hard time competing (POWER-wise) with a solid state amp like a Peavey, Evans, or Webb amp designed for steel.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 14 Dec 2003 8:03 am

If a speaker is 6db more efficient, then it will be apparantly louder. To get 6db more SPL requires four times the amp power. In other words, a Deluxe would need to be running at 88 watts to get 6db more SPL (sound pressure level), or it could attain the same volume with a 6db more efficient speaker and no increase in power.
Interestingly enough, it takes ten times the amps power to double volume. So at best, a Twin is not twice as loud (would need to be 220 watts).
My favorite amp is a 1966 Deluxe (non-reverb) that I restored. It has:

-Weber Copper cap
-RCA 6V6 tubes
-Fender/JBL, D120F

A Twin with stock Jensens, Oxfords or Eminence can still get a bit more volume (and a lot more with JBL, EV or Peavey speakers installed), but for most gigs I can keep up fine. I played a huge hall up in the Dalles with a guitar player who had a Dual Showman Reverb and a 2-12 cab. I had no problems at all. I had a backup amp with me, just in case!

Bottom line, as John said above, it can be greatly improved over the original.

I am not convinced about using 6L6GC tubes. I have seen some interesting articles about this and how one needs to change the main power supply transformer
(to accomidate the extra current requirements) and also change the output transformer to accomidate the incorrect impedance (a 6V6 tranformer does not reflect the correct load to the 6L6GC tubes)

A larger output transformer (more iron) will result in much better low end, too.

The last Vibroverb Clone I built (from a Bandmaster Reverb amp) got a Twin Reverb OT. The amp was perceivably louder and had outstanding low end! A Twin OT would work on the Deluxe with the 6L6 Tubes. It would reflect the correct impedance, too. For 4 each 6L6GC tubes, the transformer needs a 4 ohm load. For 2 each 6L6GC tubes, the transformer needs an 8 ohm load. Even the newer 50 watt transformer from Fender would be an improvement, much more iron content than the original Deluxe O.T.
A very efficient speaker would be the 1203-8 BW, paper cone. I put one in a Pacer cabinet with an LTD 400 head a while back. That was the best sounding LTD i ever heard, I think it had better bottom than a 15" BW! It seems the smaller cab (like a Nasville 400) does well and maybe better with a 12" speaker, as opposed to a 15" speaker.
Here are some typical speaker specs I found:

SPEAKER MODEL, Celestion
V12-60
RMS Power Rating 60 Watts
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 96dB

SPEAKER MODEL
Vintage 30, Celestion
RMS Power Rating 60 Watts
Sensitivity (1W/1m) 100dB

Some speakers out there are as low as 93 db SPL!

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 14 December 2003 at 08:06 AM.]

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 14 Dec 2003 8:27 am

David, if you really like the Deluxe sound, and just want it louder, consider getting a second Deluxe to cart along for those gigs. It will be easier to handle the smaller separate amps than the anvil like Twin. Just stack one on top of the other and plug into your two volume pedal jacks. It will have the same footprint on stage, one will be raised off the floor (always good), and they will look impressive as hell.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Dec 2003 8:46 am

Loudness (perceived loudness) depends on tone. Higher frequencies require very little power to be perceived as "loud". Low frequencies, on the other hand, take gobs of power (or very sophisticated speaker designs) to sound loud.

All other things being equal, though, "watts is king". To make a Deluxe sound like a Twin would require about 60 more watts, two 12" speakers, and a larger cabinet.

Sooooo, the answers is...yes, you need a Twin, or a Boogie, to hang in there with any rock band.

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 14 Dec 2003 8:51 am

I agree, Donny! Maybe two Deluxes is not such a bad idea!
How about the new Nashville 112? You guys had a chance to play with it? I heard one at St Louis this year. It was being played with a C6 in the the Peavey room. That thing was "thumping" me in the chest with low end, and I was at the back of the room! Now there is a light amp with some kick. I am sure the tone is not like a tube amp, but it sure sounded mighty sweet in St Louis.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Dec 2003 10:17 am

Ken,
1. The 112 is not ALL THAT LIGHT. My SS Standels kick out 100W w/an Altec 15, weigh about the same, and are MUCH more amp for gigs than the 112. No patching options or even midrange control with the Standels but I can live with that.

2. The NV112 does kick you in the chest as you described, but at lower (small room) volume. If you have to fill up a bigger room or 'get on it' on strings lower than E9 has, it can't nearly keep up with most bands I play with, nor with a NV1000 or even 400. Up to a point, the low end is the most pleasant surprise I found with the amp.

I use it for practice and VERY small rooms only with bands who play quietly, but don't consider it powerful enough for regular gigging.

What I have found re: the smaller amps is that a Deluxe (actually I have a Bassman) or the NV112 is an interesting way to get stereo without taking up too much real estate onstage. The Bassman (through a 15" BW) with a clean SS amp is a great combination.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 14 Dec 2003 10:29 am

Good info! I am finding that I enjoy playing with my Deluxe and one other amp a lot these days. I use a pedal board with:

MXR distortion plus > Boss Compressor > volume pedal > Ibanez DDL-10 > Boss RV-5 > Boss Super Chorus

I use the stereo out of the chorus to feed two amps. It is a huge sound! Having the volume pedal in the middle helps big time. My distortion and compressor get constant signal that way and are more predicitable as to their final sound.

I wish I had two of the Deluxes! The non-reverb models are great. The RV-5 is just a super reverb pedal (I like it way better than the reverb in the RV-3).

Rich Young · Post by **Rich Young** » 14 Dec 2003 1:12 pm

I find a Deluxe Reverb perfect for 6 string on stage - usually loud enough, but small enough to get some tube breakup with out being blasting.
For non-pedal steel, it works pretty good too, but not for pedal - you need more power. I have a BF pro - great amp, but still not enough power for steel, if you want to keep it clean.
Deluxe - 2 6V6, 1 12" speaker - about 20 watts
pro- 2 6L6's, 2 12" speakers - about 40 watts
twin - 4 6L6's, 2 12" speakers - about 80 watts (I've heard it is supposed to be 100 but I have had amp techs scope my twins out and they usually fall in the high 70's )
Check out - http://www.ampwares.com/ffg/ [This message was edited by Rich Young on 14 December 2003 at 01:14 PM.]

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 14 Dec 2003 2:48 pm

Looks like my chiropracter is getting that new Mercedes after all.

Since Sam Ash allows money back returns for 14 days I've been doing some testing.
I've purchased both the '65 Twin and Deluxe.
There's really no question which sounds better. The Twin is much better than a standard Deluxe Reverb for PSG. The Twin has all the high end, but has much more punch on the bottom. It sounds awesome with the stock Jensens- but I've yet to have it out on a gig.

The funny thing is it's exactly the opposite with a 6 string. The Deluxe is really sweet, and the Twin sounds harsh with a 6 string.

Anybody using Vibrolux? 40 watts with 2 10's.
Does ( did) JBL make a 10?

Also - I'm thinking these Reissue black face amps are pretty reliable- anybody use them?

Fred Einspruch · Post by **Fred Einspruch** » 15 Dec 2003 10:54 am

There are acouple of general assumtions that must be made and hopefully aggreed upon.

These are:

1)We love tube amps for 6 string, because we like the way the tube distortion sounds. This is especially true for rock and blues.

2)For PSG's gennerally a cleaner sound is desired. This means that more power with no or lower distortion is desireable. In fact, a transistor amp, not distorting, is also desirable (ex:Peavey)

If you can agree with the previous assumtions, then a twin will be better for PSG compared with a deluxe. (Deluxes are so nice for six string, because they distort sooner and maybe nicer than a twin.) This is also why a relatively inexpensive Peavey transistor amp sounds great for PSG, although you probably would not like it for six string(relatively high power and low distortion). Apparently, the best twins for PSG are the 135 Watt later models with the master volume. Some minor modifacations to reduce the distortion in these amps are sometimes made for PSG use, which again is the opposite of what is normally desired for six string.

In my opinion, trying to use the same amp for six string and PSG will require comprimise.
Just my 2 cents

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 15 Dec 2003 11:07 am

In my opinion, trying to use the same amp for six string and PSG will require comprimise.

Fred, I agree. One reason why I think the Vegas 400 is the best steel amp Peavey made is the availability of a second channel.

An instrument doubler... the picker, I mean... could use channel One for steel, and for channel Two put a sweet tube pre-amp between the guitar and the amp. That way the warm distorted signal from the pre-amp is amplified by the clean power amp of the Vegas. It still won't sound like a 1956 Fender Deluxe full on, but it is a more desireable consideration for a player wanting one amp for both purposes.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 15 Dec 2003 11:51 am

David - I've been using my 65 Reissue Twin for about two years now. I've had no problems with it as far as breakdowns. It has been reliable. I can't say I was happy with the stock Jenson speakers. They sounded muddy to me. I recently replaced them with a 15" JBL D130-F which gave the amp better high end sparkle and more definition in the lows. I still have to be very careful at show level volume as the sound from the Reissue Twin can get very piercing in the treble range. It's not as smooth as some older Twins I've played. In retrospect, if I had cash in hand I would have bought a used silver-face and probably gotten better sound for less money. I would recommend you change out the Jensons (Recoton) for a pair of JBL's or Black Widows. Maybe you could try your Twin hooked up to your other amp's speakers to get a perspective on how it would sound. I think you'll be surprised.

------------------
Tim Whitlock
'58 Fender 1000, '56 Fender Stringmaster, '65 Twin Reissue, Niomi lap steel, old Magnatone tube amp.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 15 Dec 2003 12:15 pm

re:Vibrolux

I used a '72 Vibrolux Reverb (SFVR) for about 25 years as my primary steel Combo amp... it wouldn't cut it in today's "louder is better" climate, unless mic'd thru the PA. But it served me reasonably well. If the band was too loud for me to get by with that amp, we were too loud for most venues. When I needed to rock out, I'd bring a Bassman... or two.

IMO the Vibrolux Reverb has the perfect weight-to-power ratio for a small club gig, and a classic Fender tube amp sound, but my '68 Twin Reverb (TR) has the cojones the SFVR lacked plus it gives me A Sense of POWER in RESERVE... the SFVR had adequate power but NO reserve.

I DO like plugging the SFVR head into the 15" speaker of the TR, sounds real nice; but still not loud, and doesn't have the low end of the TR... true power will out...

If I could manage the space I'd gig using both the VR and TR. Or 2 TR's if I had 'em...
but then I'd need a roady built like the young Lou Ferrigno..

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 15 Dec 2003 11:29 pm

Thanks for the input.
I'm not married to the RI Twin- I can return it.
I probably will return it after reading what Tim said.
I can buy a pretty beat up, but servicable 135 watt master volume silverface- with the orange JBL's in it.
It's actually quite a bit less $ than the reissue.
I guess if I re-cap and re-tube it I'll be fine.
A big concern is carrying the thing.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 16 Dec 2003 3:37 am

David
After getting the Twin, get one of these.

$229 at: http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/sid=031215230036208007213134124 615/g=guitar/search/detail/base_id/75853
Will make moving that Twin a lot easier. Also doubles as an amp stand too.[This message was edited by John Floyd on 16 December 2003 at 03:40 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 16 Dec 2003 4:59 am

Does ( did) JBL make a 10?
Yes David,,they did back years ago. Fender
tried putting 4 JBL 10 speakers in the Super
Reverb,but is brought the cost up quite a bit and wasn't succesful. D-110 F retail list $66.00 per speaker with a "B" discount to dealer,which equates to 40% discount to the dealer. All JBL speakers carried the "B"
discount. They were tight sounding with a lot of punch.

Problems with JBL was burning voice coils and JBL would not warranty them to Fender so Fender paid out of pocket for reconing etc & then CBS said NO MORE.

A Super Reverb with Oxford Speakers retailed at $429.50...A Super Reverb with D 110 JBL's
retailed at $610.00. Other than the voice coil problem the additional cost was worth the price.

Say Hi to Richard Ash and Sammy when you see them.[This message was edited by Jody Carver on 16 December 2003 at 05:04 AM.]

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 16 Dec 2003 8:40 am

I use a little foldup baggage dolly that cost about $8 for my twins. So I don't have an issue with the weight. Besides that, Twins usually have castors, or you can buy a kit and install them. I love my twins, I don't want to trade off tone & power to end up saving only a few lbs. I have just aquired a Session 400. It weighs as much as my twins, nearly, at about 70 lbs. The dolly works great with it, too. I could try for a smaller amp--maybe save 15lbs or so, but I would probably end up carrying it more,anyways. So what's the difference? When it gets over 45--50 lbs, you shouldn't be lifting it anyways---get a cart or something--if you have stairs, get a band member to help. Is there an amp under 45--50lbs out there that will deliver what a psg'er needs? I haven't seen it yet. (Maybe the rack mounts.) So the twins are easier in the long run for me to handle using the dolly. The power and tone make it worth it to me. Just my opinion.

John Floyd, looks like you might have the best solution yet!! HMMM, might have to look in to that!!

David Friedlander · Post by **David Friedlander** » 16 Dec 2003 11:44 am

Well, I just bought the 135 watt push pull with the JBL's.
They're going to put casters on it, new sovtech tubes, re-cap and re-bias.
Out the door for $700- not bad huh?

Floyd- awesome amp cases dude!

Jody- do you know Richie Friedman?