What is Sustain?

Bill Byrd · Post by **Bill Byrd** » 21 Jun 2004 3:52 pm

I suspect it's the ability of the steel to cause a note to seem to last, to hang in the air so to speak. But since I don't really know, I'm asking. If I'm right- what do you do to increase the sustain?

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 21 Jun 2004 6:24 pm

You are correct about sustain. Some things to increase sustain are:

1. Keep relatively new stings on the guitar.

2. Vibrato can do a lot for sustain.

3. The pressure and manor that a bar is slid along the strings can give an extra "boost" to sustain.

4. A given guitar can make a decided difference in the sustain as oppossed to another guitar.

5. Whether it is keyed or keyless can make a decided difference. Although this is highly debated and some feel that damping the strings to the left of the bar negates anything beyond that point affecting sustain.

6. Certain materials in the bridge and nut can make a decided difference in sustain. Soft aluminum is said by at least two manufacturers to give the best sustain. The other side of this is, soft aluminum is soo easily scratched and dented.

7. The shape and size of the changer and nut can have a tremendous difference on the sustain.

8. Good volume pedal usage probably ranks amongst the top in keeping the ringing string sustaining.

Remember a string that has stopped vibrating has NO sound, sustain or other wise. But the above should help you in your learning curve. I am sure there are more and you may hear them on this thread.

Good luck to you in choosing truly the world's most beautiful instrument. May Jesus bring you a lifetime of joy as you grow and wax strong in mastering of it,

carl

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 21 Jun 2004 10:31 pm

And then when all the mechanical aspects have had their effect, there is the aspect of the way in which the magnetic field of the pickup damps the string vibration.
From there you need to consider the actual output level of the pickup and how the amp responds to it.
Most amps do a bit of compression- a turned up valve amp does a lot. That means that the amp effectively turns down the gain during the first, loudest, part of the note, then smoothly turns it up again as the level fades out.
If you record to analogue tape, that does the same thing.
All of these processes add to the sustain, and also remove some frequencies in the sound, while they boost others.
Finally,perceived sustain depends on reverberation, whether it is an artificial effect produced electronically, or the real reverberation of a good concert hall or maybe a church.
A Really Good note can sustain in your memory for many many years after that!

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Cheers!
Dave

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 26 Jun 2004 1:23 am

Does picking softly or picking hard make a difference in sustain?
(all other things being equal)

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Peter den Hartogh
Emmons 1978 S10-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12
Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4-Guya "Stringmaster"
MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158
My Animation College in South Africa

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Jun 2004 1:56 am

If you pick lightly, there is less energy transferd from you to the string,
so it will vibrate in a smaller STARTING distance relative to stasis
So it will sustain less.
Less energy to disapaite over a shorter distance.

If you pick harder the starting distance between up/down or left/right vibrational cycles relative to stasis will be greater,
as well as the energy to be disapated.
so it will sustain longer.

So another way for a steeler to see that is :
pick lightly and raise your volume with the pedal for X amount of sustain time
or pick harder and use less pedal change for the same amount of sustain time.

You use your relative pedal level to compensate for the energy decay over time.
New strings longer decay time, because the metal in the strigs is in better molecular condition.

BUT, you will need a higher starting volume level on the pedal if pick lightly
vs picking harder
to maintain the sustian at the same output energy, because the starting energy is lower.

Yet you could maintain the same relative sustain time.

Ulitmately picking harder will give you longer sustain

ie picking hard and using the same volume pedal technique as when yuou picked lightly will give a longer sustain.

Now another aspect is the ANGLE of your pick attack,
and how your changer finger and nut roller interacts with the string.

In an ideal world all picking will be exactly 90 degrees to the surfaces that supports your string.
But in relaity we are not quite on that axis. And this changes every time we pick.

So if you're a bit up and down, versus perfectly lateral,
the parts of the string making contact with the changer and nut rollers,
can have a small effect of damping the strings vibration as it's cycles interact with extra contact at each end.
This may be manifested in resonances within the string, which disapate energy also.

So a bit less sustain.

So Carl, how am I doing?
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 June 2004 at 03:05 AM.]

Bill Byrd · Post by **Bill Byrd** » 26 Jun 2004 3:00 am

Yeh. What he said.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 26 Jun 2004 5:58 am

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 26 Jun 2004 6:00 am

Then you have the E Bow. You will have sustain until the battery goes dead!

Peter · Post by **Peter** » 27 Jun 2004 2:06 am

Thanks for the low-down, DD.
Somehow, when I pick stronger, I seem to have less control over the sustain than when I pick lightly. When I pick hard, it feels the sustain falls off in a non-linear fashion, i.e. faster falloff in the beginning. Picking lightly gives me a more linear feel. Oh well, back to practice.

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Peter den Hartogh
Emmons 1978 S10-Fender Artist S10-Remington U12
Hilton Volume Pedal-Gibson BR4-Guya "Stringmaster"
MusicMan112RP-Peavy Rage158
My Animation College in South Africa

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Jun 2004 5:45 am

Ok interesting point.
This is because the tension of a string moved a greater distance before release will be higher, and therefor disapates faster in the early cycles.

But as time goes by the distance bewteen cycles and tension decreases,
along with the energy to be disapated, so then on it has a generally decreasing ratio.

But this still goes over a relatively identical period of time over all.

So what you hear is a loud attack with a quick disapation.
But the decay after initial attack remains the same.

If you use some nubers... not precice, just an explanition
100 as max picking force F
100 as max energy after picking E
100 as max time of sstring decay T

If you pick at F100 it has E100 and T100. Any more and you break the string.

But after say T80 the E is down to E60

If you pick at F80, at T90 the E would only be E60 for the F100 picking,
yet would be a higher ratio relative to F100.

Same available energy, but the attck was less sharp, and the energy would still decay at the same rate from a starting point of E60..
but at an earlier TIME relative to picking.

If you picked at F50,
at T80, E would be down less again RELATIVE to the starting force energy E50

But the amount of E would decay as if it was from a later place in the F100 picked time frame.
So E40 would arrive much later, say T40.

The amount of initial force is less, so the tension and distance of cycles and intial decay is also less.
But the total time won't be all that much less.

Since the longer in time a string cycles, the less disapation of the available energy happens.

So it is theoretically good if you want a smooth sound for loud notes to pick at F80.
But for an attacky sound to pick at F95.

In any case after a certain amout of time the ratio of energy disapation vs time decreases, and the string really doesn't ring that much longer or shorter.

The time between F80 and F50, vs F100 is closer

And we have the volume pedal to artificially compensate for the natural decay time available.

Bill Byrd · Post by **Bill Byrd** » 27 Jun 2004 7:57 am

Took the words right out of my mouth. Ha! Seriously though- that technology is relative to the field I'm in. Lung "behavior" is controlled by two characteristics known as compliance and elastance. The latter would be conducive to sustain (if I've thought it out properly).

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I've been wishing since 1959 for another Sleep Walk. It will happen.

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 1 Jul 2004 10:51 pm

I have a guitar that's not as good on sustain as my others. I'm not sure what it could be...the nut and bridge are of different material...it appears to be a plastic type material, and the bridge is some sort of metal.

But if the bar is fretting the instrument somewhere on the neck, isn't the nut out of the system at that point? The steel (or metal) bridge and the steel bar would then be the two points of termination...the bar acting as the nut....or am I so tired that I'm making no sense whatsoever at this wee hour in the morning (EST)

Dave B. brought up an interesting point on the pickup aspect. I wonder how much of a role the pickup play in sustain. If the strings were closer to the pole pieces, would that make a difference?
Incidently, the volume is a little lower on that guitar (I have to raise the volume setting on my amp a bit)...[This message was edited by Jeff Strouse on 01 July 2004 at 11:59 PM.]

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 2 Jul 2004 3:57 am

Heres a fun simulator ...

Wave Damping and Non-Conservative Vibration

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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 July 2004 at 05:10 AM.]

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 2 Jul 2004 8:36 am

"But if the bar is fretting the instrument somewhere on the neck, isn't the nut out of the system at that point?

Jeff,

It would certainly appear that would be the case. However, there are just a whole hoast of players that say what is to the left of the muted left hand does affect the sustain.

The first person to call my attention to this was John Fabian (of Carter Guitars) in Saluda one year when I indicated I was contemplating a keyless guitar. As it turned out, he was and is IMO, 100% correct.

Whatever it is, be it sustain or overtones or whatever, what is to the left of the bar DOES have a decided affect on what some players hear.

carl

David Knutson · Post by **David Knutson** » 12 Jul 2004 9:22 am

Certainly the overtones from an undamped string can give a much greater perception of sustain. Try playing some screaming rock style licks damped and undamped and you'll likely hear a big difference.
David K

Wayne Douglas · Post by **Wayne Douglas** » 18 Jul 2004 8:35 pm

When I first got my Emmons S10 (used),it didn't seem to have as much sustain as I wanted.From somewhere I found some string to pickup ratio figures using quarters(.25
cent piece)as a guide.anyway,I raised the
pickup to a thickness of 3 quarters and my
sustain improved greatly.

Jennings Ward · Post by **Jennings Ward** » 19 Jul 2004 10:29 am

Webster has a good defination of sustain...another way of saying sustainm "continue" to viberate "ring" with a slow "demise" My 1/2 penny......all are correct, some more elaborating "ssustain" than outhers....long defination = sustained.... short defination = fast decay. I hope this pp analogy helps. I'll unsustain now......Jennings

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EMMONS D10 10-10 profex 2 deltafex ne1000 pv1000, pv 31 bd eq, +