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Jeff Au Hoy
From:
Honolulu, Hawai'i
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 12:07 pm |
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Last edited by Jeff Au Hoy on 19 Jan 2018 2:41 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 12:23 pm
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Hi Jeff,
I'm with you, those old recordings and the tone they got drives me nuts! I love it and yet I can't dial it in on my equipment.
They recorded those tunes much differently than they record today. Frequently they used one, maybe two mics for the whole band. It was up to the individual band members to monitor they're own volume and tone. If an instrument was to be featured, they just stood closer to the mic. The resulting recording had a much more natural three dimensional sound stage, live sound. Listening to those old recordings you can close your eyes, and tell where each musician was standing in the room in relation to the microphone.
Today each musician has at least one microphone on them during recording. The musicians don't need to be near each other during the recording. Through the use of headphones and monitors they can be in different rooms (and on different days).
Things may be changing though I have noticed that many contemporary Bluegrass bands are going back to the old style of using just one omni-directional microphone on stage during live performances. It's exciting to watch the on stage choreography as each instrumentalist moves into the mic during their solo and weaves back out to allow the vocalists back.
This has strayed a bit off the topic, sorry.
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 02 July 2004 at 01:30 PM.] |
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c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 12:23 pm
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| I don'tknow Jeff. Maybe we are searching for something thats unattainable. Roy Wiggins told me the story od this fellow that purchased a steel from Roy; exactly like Roys, Roy tuned it, and sent along his amp settings. Also the same bar and picks. The guy called back afew days later mad as the old wet hen and said I got every thing just like you and still I don't sound like you. Roy said "but you don't have my hands". Maybe the answer? take care Keep your thumb pick hot. CC |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 12:41 pm
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If you were to use a vintage 1940s amp and Fry Pan to record today, you'd have the tone, but the method of capturing and manufacturing the end product would result in a less lossy product. Much of the high end is gone from the early recordings and maybe alot of it wasn't even captured to begin with, being that amps weren't close-miked. I also think it's important for instruments to sound as if they belong together, like pieces of a sonic puzzle. Too many of today's recordings use the full frequency spectrum of each instrument, and I think it just clogs things up. I don't like to hear the complete range of the bass--just as I don't think it's necessary to encroach on the bassist's range with the steel.
Personally, I'm into the early methods of recording, at least in terms of recording live and in a great room with a few mics. The Moonlighters next record will most likely be recorded in a Storyk/Augsperger-designed room in a world class facility which we played in recently. From the first notes we played it was like magic. I haven't experienced that very many times. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 1:18 pm
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| Quote: |
| The Moonlighters next record will most likely be recorded in a Storyk/Augsperger-designed room in a world class facility which we played in recently. From the first notes we played it was like magic. |
I heard Donald Fagan (Steely Dan) was spell-bound at that session ... sat in the back of the room quietly and applauded ... even though he could have left at any moment to go back in and join that party.
The "Belly" knows all 
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www.horseshoemagnets.com |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 1:19 pm
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| Like Mark Twain, the music of the Hawaiians haunts my dreams. Iona and McIntire’s sound gets into your soul. The sound of the steel on those old records is a pre-rock & roll sound. Mike and Jeff - you're right. It's a low-fi sound. It's the combination of the amp, the guitar, the recording technology; the reproducing technology and (I think) the key factor everyone misses is the psychology of the times. It wasn't necessasarily a "better" time but people had a different mindset. People weren’t inundated with media at every turn. The only breaking news was from the newspaper or radio. Many aspects of good citizenship were part of children's education in a way that doesn't happen anymore. The pace of life was slower. Playing and listening to live music held a different place in our culture then it does today. IMHO, all this had as much affect on the sound of those old records as the technology |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 5:25 pm
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OK ... I mowed the whole lawn thinkin' if I should or shouldn't ...
What I'm about to discuss ... are the steelers that I'm fascinated with ... before the reverb, chord laden, volume swell era ... when the players first went from tricones to Rickys ...
When electric single string playing was prominant ...
To me ... its not the lo-fi recordings, mike placements, etc ... its the use of a very energenic vibrato.
The common denominator of Andy Iona, Bobby Nichols, Dick McIntire, Sol Hoopii, Sam Koki, Eddie Bush & Danny Stewart ... they all emulated the horns and singers of their time ... which featured a 6-7 Hz vibrato (that is FAST).
This is not the "natural vibrato" that JB and others advocate ... it is a "practiced", "focused" attempt to emulate SINGERS of that era!!
Violinist, singers, etc ... spend years working on vibrato ... but in the "steel community" it seems "less is more" ... "don't think about it" ... "let it flow naturally"... seems to be the norm.
And even though JB solo records have that lush, slow , almost non-existant vibrato ... I have videos (Conventions) of him playin' Dick McIntire tunes ... and he's "whippin' out" a 6 Hz vibrato ... often ... with deadly accuracy and effect.
So even though JB calls it a "Nanny Goat" vibrato ... when its time for him to pull out a tune like ... "Tomi Tomi" (again recalling a convention video)... he put every bit as much energy into his vibrato that his idol ... D. McIntire ... did.
Just my opinions ...
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www.horseshoemagnets.com [This message was edited by Rick Aiello on 02 July 2004 at 08:09 PM.] |
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 6:12 pm
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Ya know guys, recording has changed a helluva lot over the past 50 years...duhhhh!
The amps used 50 years ago were all tube jobs, no transistors. No giant speakers or mega-watt outputs. As someone mentioned, they just stuck one mic in the studio and went for it. (I can speak from experience in that regard). No D.I. or anything similar.
The tone which really knocked me silly was that of Jack DeToro who played steel with Johnny Pineapple....man, you talk about a sweet guitar!!! I have never heard anyone come anywhere close to that gorgeous sound or his delicate picking and phrasing.
I recall reading an old DOWNBEAT jazz magazine in which they reviewed a recording by Johnny Pineapple...(highly unusual for a JAZZ magazine in those days !) They raved at Jack De Toro's cool phrasing and tone.
Ya gotta dig up those old Pineapple discs to really appreciate a sound which is no longer heard today no matter the fantastic recording technology available today.  |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 2 Jul 2004 9:31 pm
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To me ... its not the lo-fi recordings, mike placements, etc ... its the use of a very energenic vibrato.
Amen to that, brother. That's it in a nutshell.
[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 03 July 2004 at 06:41 AM.] |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 3 Jul 2004 6:49 am
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| Good point, Rick! The aesthetics of vibrato have changed over the years as a listen to classical violinists from 70 years ago will show. For the most part, the musicians who've moved me the most over the years - Paul Desmond, Joao Gilberto - to name just two, use very minimal vibrato. Yet the steelers I dig the most use prominant vibrato. Go figure. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 3 Jul 2004 7:53 am
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"South Sea Moon" by Jerry Byrd is now being featured on the jerrybyrdfanclub.com site.
For an insite toward "fast" vibrato...this example will explain it all. |
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Rick Aiello
From:
Berryville, VA USA
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2004 1:24 pm
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Mike, Rick, Andy, Ray, CC, Keoki...
We are all on the same wavelength musically. What say we all meet up at the Joliet convention this October? We'll have a blast! Jeff is already going to be there.
Honestly, there are very few people in this world who understand what the hell we are so fanatical about. Let's get together.
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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'
Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
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Bill Leff
From:
Santa Cruz, CA, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2004 2:37 pm
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What Gerald said!
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c c johnson
From:
killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.
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Posted 4 Jul 2004 2:07 am
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| I would love to however Sept and Oct is the height of the luau season in these parts and it is very difficult to get away. If we have a break at the right time I'll be there |
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Kevin Ruddell
From:
Toledo Ohio USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2004 4:09 am
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I really enjoyed reading everyones comments on this topic. On my way out of the music store this week while buying some strings I saw amongst the items on the closeout table, a bunch of boxes of effects pedals called "lo-fi".Don't know anything about them though.
Several years ago a friend made 4 - 90 minute compilation cassettes from his vinyl collection, of two British blues-rock bands for me that were an overview of each bands 20 year career from the mid sixties to mid eighties. I noticed while listening, that as the bands records progressed over the years, the songs and playing improved , but the sound production got thinner and more distant from the listener as the technology went from a few tracks to 24 tracks and a few days or weeks time went to months.Subtraction by addition. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 4 Jul 2004 8:01 am
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Gerald...you have no idea how very much I'd like to take you up on that challenge. Just to get to meet all of you guys in one single place would be nothing short of great!
The wife and I are currently trying to figure out how we might be able to travel that distance..........what with gas here in Oregon being the 6th highest in the nation.
Question: Why is there so little info' circulated about that particular event? I'm in the dark as what to expect once I got there. |
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Andy Volk
From:
Boston, MA
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Posted 4 Jul 2004 10:58 am
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| Thanks for the official invite! Unlikely I'll be able to make it this year due to previous committments. |
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Gerald Ross
From:
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
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George Keoki Lake
From:
Edmonton, AB., Canada
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Posted 4 Jul 2004 9:45 pm
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| Gerald, I'd love to but it just doesn't work out for me. I attended a few Joliet conventions about 15 years ago and they were always a great experience ! |
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Tim Whitlock
From:
Colorado, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2004 10:14 am
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"So why do we, the steel players, cling to this lo-fi sound while every other component in the group has been upgraded to hi-fi?
We try to emulate this old recorded sound, while really having no idea of what the actual live sound in the studio might have been. Why should we expect the lo-fi steel sound to blend well with a hi-fi band?"
I don't know if I have the answer, other than it's just a gorgeous sound, in and of itself. I tend towards the western swing guys, Leon, Noel Boggs, et al, but I think it's the same lo-fi phenomenon as one finds with the Hawaiians. I found that when I used a vintage lap steel and an old class A amp, the sound was readily available, only with a bit more presence. This sound still fits in the right musical context.
Recordings today have entirely too much detail. I find most of them unlistenable. |
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Chuck Fisher
From:
Santa Cruz, California, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Jul 2004 10:23 am
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its the old tube recorders, with analog tape of poorer quality combined with old non-flat mics. Some were probably on old wire-recorders or even direct-to-disc cut live.
and old hands on folks of a different era playing the notes with the feeling of those times, IMO |
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Bob Stone
From:
Gainesville, FL, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2004 6:08 am
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Comparing your live tone to old recordings is really like comparing apples to oranges--or avocados to bicycles. They just can't be compared.
Playing a nice vintage steel through a small vintage amp should get you close to what those musicians of yesteryear were hearing as they played, but not what their records sound like. I played my ca. 1936 Bakelite Ric through a little 1950s Kalamazoo amp (one tone control) last week and it was mighty sweet.
As for vibrato, that's a complicated topic and, of course, vibrato speed and width are totally subjective.
Having taken a few violin lessons, I can tell you that many good violinists put a lot of work into their vibrato. And each finger of the violinist's left hand tends to behave differently in terms of vibrato speed and width. At least we steelers don't have to deal with that.
Personally, a fast vibrato--whether vocal or instrumental--is not my cup of tea. And sometimes the best vibrato is no vibrato.
[This message was edited by Bob Stone on 07 July 2004 at 07:11 AM.] |
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John McGann
From:
Boston, Massachusetts, USA * R.I.P.
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Posted 7 Jul 2004 10:03 am
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Miles Davis had a teacher when he was a teenager who told him "Lose the vibrato- one day you'll be old and shakin' anyway!"
These great Hawaiian recordings would be a lot less interesting without the vibrato- imagine that Iona clip played straight w/o vibrato- it would just sit there... it is such a part of the style and touch and tradition.
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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff.
[This message was edited by John McGann on 07 July 2004 at 11:04 AM.] |
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