I'm confused, small amps?

Raymond Beale · Post by **Raymond Beale** » 30 Dec 2002 12:18 pm

Other than weight, why?

I thought all amps came with a volumn control, most amps have a pre and post gain.

I have a Vegas 400, Evans FET 200, a Bandit 112. I still like the sound I get praticing with a full sized amp.

I just turn the knob called MASTER GAIN counter clockwise till the dogs quit howling.

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"STEELIN' IN STYLE"
Williams S-12, MSA S-12,
Vegas 400, Evans amp, POD lINE 6. Hilton Digital vol.
Ray Beale Rosenberg,Tx

Post by **Joey Ace** » 30 Dec 2002 12:29 pm

"Other than weight, why?"

None that I can think of.
But that is one important reason, for me.

I have a Nash 400 and an Evans AE100.
If someone else is gonna transport it, or if it has to be left overnight at a gig, I take the Nash.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 1 Jan 2003 1:49 am

Some people just like the sound of a small amp "pushed", compared to a larger amp. The "pre" and "post" gains offer only an "approximation" of natural (small-amp) overdrive. As any blues player will tell you..."It just ain't the same".

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 1 Jan 2003 4:53 am

I think it's driving the SPEAKER to near it's limit that gives the sound.

The ear can tell when a speaker is getting driven at it's optimum and no mater what you do with pre and post gain controls on a larger amp, the speaker WILL sound "choked back" at lower levels.
IMO
Then of course there's the small amount of colouration added to the signal when you run the output stage to saturation !!
Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[This message was edited by basilh on 01 January 2003 at 04:56 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 1 Jan 2003 4:55 am

for me it's only about weight.

All of my amps live in the garage and very seldom do any of them ever get up to the practice room. I practice with headphones and always have.

Every now and again I will bring the N1000 up to the room to practice at moderate volume and work on tone settings as well , but not often.

I don't leave any gear at gigs overnight anymore, as I learned my lesson many years back. It's a hell of a gig when you show up and the band is one amp short..and it's yours that is missing !

Like many here, I am considering a very small amp for the practice room.
tp

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 1 Jan 2003 11:34 am

Why in the world don't Peavey, Fender et al make their heavy combo amps as two pieces, a small piggyback if you will? Is it the bucks?

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 1 Jan 2003 5:28 pm

My guess is that any given amp would cost considerably more if it were made in two pieces versus one piece -- just an educated guess though

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 2 Jan 2003 1:18 am

Basil, I disagree. Yes the sound of a speaker being pushed can add a certain amount of tone, but IMHO it's minor compared to the coloration that pushing the power amp section of a tube amp gives. For instances, for years I used a THD Univalve amp as a preamp, it didn't drive any speaker, but the line level of the Univalve going into a transistor power amp into a set of speakers that weren't being driven hard had maybe 80 percent of the tone of the amp driving speakers. Also, my Univalve and BiValve amps sound pretty much identical when they are running flat out or attenuated 50% (when they aren't driving speakers).

This is just my experience, but I haven't found speaker distortion to be all that significant.

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www.tyack.com

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 2 Jan 2003 3:51 am

Well..being a part time Bass player..my view would be that any speaker that was close to breaking up would be removed from the rig.

Considering that folks are paying the big bucks for SWR, Hartke, Gallien Kruger etc..for massive totally clean amps with gobs of headroom along with speaker cabs that can handle killo watts of power to reproduce the exact tone of the player, the Bass and the amp.....there would be no place for any speaker that went off on it's own
out of control journey .

Why would it be any different for a Steel Player or a Guitar player ? The guys blasting off with Marshall Stacks didn't bring 200 watt amps and play thru 50 watt speaker, did they ?
In my experience playing guitar, I will use the "Speaker Edge" as just another tool in the tone arsenal, but the speaker better be able to do something else other than break up. It better be able to reproduce "CLEAN" when required.

Now all this being said, A small Fender tube amp with a nice warm "At the Edge " speaker is the Holy Grail of tone....at least in the Blues world...

tp

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 5 Jan 2003 4:18 am

Lads,
I was refering to the speaker being driven at it's OPTIMUM.
I don't think I mentioned breaking up or distorting.
If my views regarding speakers having a different tone and response at low and high levels is wrong, explain to me why and how the "Loudness" button was developed for hi-fi amps.
Baz

Alan Kirk · Post by **Alan Kirk** » 5 Jan 2003 7:36 am

basilh,

The loudness button adds low lows and high highs because when you are listening at a low volume, the human ear doesn't hear the low lows and high highs as well as it does at a higher volume (The Fletcher-Munson Curve). The loudness button was created for low-volume listening levels.

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basilh · Post by **basilh** » 6 Jan 2003 2:08 am

Thanks Alan,
I was under the impression that it compensated for the loudspeaker's lack of efficiency at low drive levels.
Well thanks again for putting me right.

So I can assume then that a loudspeaker's frequency response DOESN'T change with differing levels of drive , yes ?
Baz[This message was edited by basilh on 07 January 2003 at 09:46 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 6 Jan 2003 3:58 am

Basilh..yes the loudness ccontrol on stereo amps actually is only active for the first portion of the volume control, it is not active after a set point ( by the manufacturer) on the volume control, probably about 1/2. It gradually decreases . Although there are many speaker systems that require a minimum wattage for the low end driver, the full range response is more commonly a function of the amp rather than the speaker. This brings us back to a 300 watt amp..why ? So the dynamic range of the amp is extremely good and tight at low to moderate volume or mid point...Folks buy all these hi end stereo systems with 400 watts per channel..not to listen at 400 watts (I hope) but to deliver clarity and response at lower or listening volume. Real stereo purists would never have a loudness control on their amps..Does MacIntosh come to mind ?

Eddy Van Halen was once asked why he used so many Hi ouput Marshall Stacks..he said..it's not for volume..it's for clarity . But he does play pretty loud as well ....

I have a loudness control on my stereo..I use it all the time..I'm not a purist..And I do use a Nashville 1000 and get yelled at sometimes for playing to loud..I just tell them I'm seeking the excellent overall response volume..they usually respond by telling me to turn it down or seek a new gig ! Geesh..some folks can't take a joke !

tp

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 6 Jan 2003 7:35 am

I agree with Tony.....

Any speaker that breaks up will not deliver the true sound !

As an ET, I do understand the difference between pushing a tube amp and a solid-state amp and the speaker. I don't think pushing the speaker past it's optimun reigon is a good thing. If you want/need effects.... Get a "Profex II".

In general,The PSG is a clean,well temptured thing. Trying to get a certain sound by over-drivin' the speaker unit,is only to damage your equipment and result in re-placement of expensive parts.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Jan 2003 9:49 am

Am I reading this right .
What you are saying is that a loudspeaker's frequency response is the SAME at ALL levels up to it's max handling capacity ? (Lets say from 10 watts to 100 watts with a 200w rated speaker)
Baz.[This message was edited by basilh on 07 January 2003 at 09:50 AM.]

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 Jan 2003 2:29 am

Can ANYONE answer my last post ? "please"
Baz

Alan Kirk · Post by **Alan Kirk** » 13 Jan 2003 7:50 am

basilh said:

"What you are saying is that a loudspeaker's frequency response is the SAME at ALL levels up to it's max handling capacity ?"

Probably not. But in a perfect world, yes. Some high-end speakers come with a graph showing their deviation from a flat response in relation to frequency. I've never seen a perfectly flat graph. I imagine the speaker's response curve also would change in relation to how much power it was handling.

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basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 Jan 2003 3:56 pm

As does it's impedance versus frequency !
Baz
www.waikiki-islanders.com