Amp question for Mike Brown

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 13 Nov 2002 3:30 pm

Mike,
Do you think that Peavey will ever make a dedicated tube amp for pedal steel ??...Peavey makes so many Solid State amps for steel, it would surely be nice to see a 100 watt Peavey with an EQ section and controls to flatter the pedal steel..A combo, or a seperate head/cab arrangement to make it easy to carry around ??
Thanks for listening....Jim

PS..The VMP-2 should be reissued ..It's a great pre for a lot of reasons, mainly bass, and pedal steel...

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 14 Nov 2002 8:36 am

Should be great when it was in a 19" rack version,with possibillity for stereo output, then it would be up to the steeler where to put it, in a rack next to the steel, or somewhere else. Also, easy change for 110/220 trafo, so it would work for Europe.Then the speakercabinet must be a wedge, could be put in front then, ot just straight up behind you. Make it that flexible

JJ

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Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 15 Nov 2002 3:42 pm

An all-tube steel guitar amplifier would not be a very difficult feat and I have received quite a few questions about the possibility of a Peavey tube steel amplifier. However, here is the problem with tube amplifiers; sufficient power for steel guitar vs. the weight of an amp for the steel guitar. The Fender Twin Reverb has been mentioned many, many times as a good tube steel amplifier, but within the same sentence there is always mention about the weight.

The separate amp head/cabinet can easily be done and this would make the product more attractive for those that are concerned about weight. In my opinion, this would be the only way to go.

Please check out this post from today on the Forum;

From: Munich, Germany
posted 15 November 2002 10:17 AM profile send email edit
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I have an opportunity to buy a Fender Super Reverb amplifier, a ´70s silverface model, with four 10" original Fender speakers. Right now I´m using a Silverface Twin Reverb, the 135 watt model with two G-125 JBL´s. I love the sound of it, but the weight is killing me. When I picked up the Super, I was surprised because it´s a good deal lighter. I´d like to hear from steel players who have played through both, possibly on stage also, how they compare
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The "weight" problem is what is encountered with a tube amp design. What is a "reasonable" weight for steel guitar tube enthusiasts? Forty watts is not enough power to perform with a live band or in a large open venue. Seventy five watts is still not enough power for a live application on a bandstand. At what point is an amp powerful enough for playing live "weekend" gigs with a band? In my personal experiences, a 150 watt amp would be the minimum that I would use.

A steel guitar can produce extreme low frequencies as well as extreme high frequencies. Lower frequencies in general can eat up the valuble headroom(power) of an amp. When this occurs, speakers can fail.

Feel free to submit your ideas to us for future reference. I'll pass along the information for future reference.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 16 Nov 2002 6:41 am

Mike, in the '70's I had ma MACE top, tubes (160 watts through 6 6L6 tubes) It had power enough, if this kind of amp could be voiced and have the EQ things for todays standards, and would be rackmount in 19", it would make a great steel-tube amp. Also when it has the easy possibillities to change the input tube, or just come as a poweramp, easy to combine with a profex, or Roland or Boogie pre-amp, it would be great!

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 16 Nov 2002 7:59 am

Along those same lines, the tube power amp seperate from the steel designed rack mount tube preamp. Seperating the spkr cabinet, preamp and power head into three lighter loads.
Hurry!..I want one!

Dennis

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 18 Nov 2002 11:29 am

Mike,
If you are concerned with the added power needed for the bass end of the amp, design a bi-amp setup with most of the power going to the bass end, and less power going to the high end...For that matter, I'm using one of your older 60/60 amps....You could design a Bi-amped pre amp, to run into a 2 channel rack mount amp, into a speaker cabinet that has a 15" for lows, and a 12" for the mids and highs
All this gear can be seperate for those concerned with weight...Heck, just a bi-ampable pre, that you could also use full range, would do the trick..Maybe an adjustable crossover ??..there's plenty of tube power amps still around...We need a tube pre based on Pedal Steel frequencies... I don't think that the speaker cab needs a high frequency horn, as you get plenty of highs thru a 12 or 15 inch speaker..Maybe a cabinet tuned for 1 - 15 inch speaker designed for steel...The 1504 would work fine !!... So, I guess for starters, a tube pre would work wonders...Then we could all choose solid state power or tube power amps of just about ANY power we wanted...Like a 50/50 for smaller gigs, and a 100/100 or so for larger gigs...Or because it would be biamped, you could run 2 seperate amps, like a 100 watt for the bass, and a 50 watt for the mids and highs...A lot of variables for Peavey to work with..Peavey is the choice of many pedal steel players, and plenty use the solid state Nashville amps, why not a Nashville Tube Pre ??....Thanks for listening...Sincerely, JIm

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 18 Nov 2002 1:22 pm

Thanks for the input Jim. Don't think that it goes unnoticed as we definitely consume your suggestions for possible use in future products.

There's no doubt that your suggestions can be accomplished by our engineers, the question is, will the marketplace sustain these kind of products. The bottom line is that the product must be a "sellable" one with features and power that is a relatively lightweight product. Again, tube amps with sufficient power for steel guitar applications are known to be quite "weighty".

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Nov 2002 1:24 pm

A Peavey tube steel amp would be great, especially if it was at a tyical Peavey price rather than at the boutique price of the existing tube steel amps.

In the '70s I started out with a Fender Super Reverb blackface (about 45 watts) with a JBL 15" speaker. I had to turn the bass way up and the treble way down. Nice tone but nowhere near enough power even for small bars.

The the lead singer bought and loaned to me a Peavey (can't remember the model) tube lead guitar amp head with 200 watts. It had a clean (American) side and a dirty (Marshall) side. I put my JBL 15" in a homemade cabinet to use with it. But I still had to dial the treble way down and the bass way up. The dirty side had plenty of power, and I would use the pre and post to dial in distortion for playing blues. But the clean side didn't really have enough power. I felt like I was getting less than 100 watts.

After not playing for over 20 years (and loosing the above amp head) I started up again and got a Peavey Transtube Supreme amp head, which has 100 watts, and played it through my old JBL 15". It's a transistor amp designed to have tube sound. Again it has a clean and a dirty side. But neither side has enough power, and again the clean side feels like about half of the rated watts. Also, again I have to dial way up on the bass and way down on the treble (probably why I'm only getting half the rated watts).

So then I got a used Peavey Nashville 400. Great sound (for a transistor amp) and enough power finally. If you need more than its 200 watts, you need to mic into the PA system. The compression circuitry works great and gives that typical Peavey smooth horn-like sound. The 4 band equalization is fairly well balanced for steel. I dial up the bass one to three notches and the treble down the same amount, depending on how live the room is.

At some point I will try running the Transtube into the Nashville to get a dirty blues sound. But I'm not sure exactly how that should be done. Possibly if I keep it below harsh distortion, I can also get a clean tube sound. Mike, got any suggestions on how to do this.

Sometimes when practicing at a friend's house, I leave my amp at home and play through his silver face Fender Twin reverb. Too shrill, not enough bass, not enough power for steel.

It seems the demand for high wattage in a steel amp comes from three sources. One is the need for a lot of bass, as others have mentioned above. Also, you need to be able to get close to the amps maximum output with no distortion (lots of head room).

But the main demand for power comes from the way steelers use the volume pedal. Most steelers attack their notes with the volume pedal backed way off, maybe 3/4s off, and then pedal down to get sustain on the long notes. This means you need an amp with about 4 times as much gain as a regular guitar player. Hence, My Nashville 400, with 200 watts, plays well with 6-stringers using 40-50 watt amps. Some people have referred to that as "head-room," but I think that is really a different concept. They are speaking of how much gain you can use before you get distortion. A 50 watt amp that starts distorting at 3/4 volume has less head room than one that distorts at 9/10 volume. But a 50 watt amp with no distortion at 100% volume still would not have enough gain for a steel, because of the way the volume pedal is used. So it's not just the head-room, it's the raw power needed to get the sustain with the volume pedal.

So, Mike, give us a tube amp head with 200 to 400 watts usable power (i.e., tons of bass and no distortion). If it made it cheaper and lighter, maybe it could have a tube preamp and transistor power amp. Give it equalization balanced for steel like the Nashville 400. Also, we need an earphone jack, for tuning and for practicing at home.

Finally, would an efficient 2- or 3-way speaker system require less power (and thereby less weight and cost)? Steelers like 15" speakers. But I know there are light weight 50 watt bass amps with a 12" speaker that have tons of bass and plenty of volume. I think steelers like 15" speakers because they automatically filter out highs to keep the tone from being shrill with amps that are not equalized for steel. Why should a steel guitar, with strings no lower than a standard guitar, need a massive amp and 15" speaker, when bass players with strings an octave lower can get by with a small amp and 12" speaker? It seems like no one has really engineered an efficient, properly equalized steel amp and speaker combination; although, Peavey has come closest with the Nashville series.

Thanks for all your technical advice, Mike.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 18 Nov 2002 5:53 pm

Mike,
Since we steelers don't want to get a hernia lifting amps to go from home to gig, let's make it nice and light....Product #1
Peavey Nashville Tube Preamp
Master Volume, Gain Control, Complete EQ section featuring fixed Bass, Sweepable Mids, and fixed Treble contols..Reverb, that can be bypassed with effects unit of choice with adjustable send and return jacks..Headphone out, Full frequency out, as well as adjustable crossover with hi and low frequency out....Set up with 12ax7's with the option of running 12AT7's for a cleaner tone, and more clean headroom...
No power amp built in, just a tube preamp with reverb and EQ with a few added goodies to make a grown man smile !!.... Nice light weight with tone to the bone...Did I mention that this amp also has a Cannon out for studio recording so it can plug directly into the board for recording, or for use in a large PA setup ??....Thanks Mike...Sorry to drive you crazy !!!....Sincerely, Jim

PS..I only make these comments because there are some wonderful Peavey products out there , and with the steel community embraseing Peavey as much as it does, I think that a dedicated unit for steel players is a home run not only for Peavey, but for us players as well..Jim

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 18 Nov 2002 10:05 pm

Peavey does make a 100-watt tube amp for steel.......2 Classic 50's....works for me, and the weight is cut in half! Two amps make more sense anyway, it balances the load. Short on space? Stack 'em!

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 19 Nov 2002 8:36 am

I think Jeff's on to something... besides two 50's are actually louder than one 100- some dern law of power/decibels or something I can't explain (but I am sure someone here can- and has!)

I know this is a "Peavey" thread, but me- I'd use Two Twin Reverbs- as Bill Kirchen calls it- "a set of Texas Headphones!"

If it ain't loud enough, mic the dern thing....<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 19 November 2002 at 08:37 AM.]</p></FONT>

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 19 Nov 2002 9:55 am

Mike,
Here's another thought....How about a Nashville 1000 hybrid ??....Have everything the same as you have on the Nashville 1000 with the only difference being a tube preamp section....This would only involve swapping out the solid state parts for tube parts on the preamp ...Now you have a tube preamp, with a powerful Solid State amplifier, with a 15 inch speaker and reverb, and you still reatain a weight that everybody will be happy with !! The "Nashville 1000 Tube"..Jim

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 19 Nov 2002 9:57 am

Dave,
"Texas Headphones".....I like that !!!...Jim

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 19 Nov 2002 3:10 pm

So, how much would you be willing to pay for such a product, U.S. retail?

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 19 Nov 2002 6:01 pm

How much of the warm tube tone comes from the tube preamp? And how much of it comes from the tube power amp? I'm guessing half and half?...but I'm no genious electronics person. Tube tech's jump in.
Dennis

Al Burk · Post by **Al Burk** » 19 Nov 2002 7:20 pm

Mike,

I once had a TubeFlex that had a great tube preamp section. I believe it was powered by two 12ax7s. I think it was replaced by the TransTube which is all solid state.

Why don't Peavey consider bringing back the Tubeflex. Maybe with some hotter tube than the 12ax7s. I would gladly get rid of my DigiTech 2120 and try one.

Thanks

Al B.

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 20 Nov 2002 7:04 am

As you know, the Session 2000 was discontinued because of the unavailability of the RAM cartridge and related parts for that feature and the Tubefex used these same parts. It seems that the whole RAM cartridge format is changing like 45RPM records and cassettes were phased out for compact discs.

How much would you pay for an all tube preamp and/or all tube steel guitar amp?

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 20 Nov 2002 8:32 am

Mike,
The price would depend on what you would be offering...I would say that if you would be offering the same features as the Nashville 1000, and everything would basically be the same except that the preamp section would be tube, and not solid state, there would not be too much involved, especially since Peavey already has the knowledge and the know how to build a tube preamp section...If we are talking a point to point wiring of the pre amp, then we're talking a good chuck more money, but if it will be a printed circuit with say 3 or 4 - 12ax7's, then maybe we're looking at a $100-$200 increase on top of the RETAIL LIST PRICE of the Solid State version of the Nashville 1000
Make it !!..They will come !!!..Sincerly,Jim

PS..Using this tube setup, you would have a very versatile amp that could also be used for guitar !!..Tubes could be changed out for more or less clean headroom, so the amp could be custom tailored for use with either guitar or Steel .. and with a 15 inch speaker with variable gain ??..Hello blues players !!..

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 20 Nov 2002 11:02 am

How about a USB memory stick?, the same as used in computers,instead of a ram cartridge?
With a processor-editing-programm for the computer as an extra you will have all the best of the digital world... Work on your effects behind your PC, and swap them through this forum!!
JJ

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Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 20 Nov 2002 12:26 pm

200-400 watt tube amp? No way my brother-in-law would carry that, even if I DID introduce him to the good looking ones! With power supply, etc., you're probably looking at over 100 lbs., just for the power amp!
And if you're gonna run a transistor power amp, then there are plenty of tube preamps already out there. But we don't want solid state power amps, it's those 6L6's, or 5881's, or whatever, working, that make that old tube amp sound so good. I'd bet that Jeff's 2 Classic 50's, sound just fine----in other words, what you're asking for is already there. And 2 combo amps would make for easier carrying, you'd always be able to use one if one failed(I know, it'd sound weak, but in an emergency...)Jeff, you got my vote. Except I love my Traynor!!!

Tony Rankin · Post by **Tony Rankin** » 20 Nov 2002 6:19 pm

Mike,

What is the scoop on the Tube Sweetner? Will it give me the Blackface Twin sound from my Nashville 400? Just what would it do for those of us with solid state amps?

Tony

Eddie Malray · Post by **Eddie Malray** » 20 Nov 2002 7:24 pm

I have been wanting a Peavy Tube Steel amp for years. We need the quality and features that Peavey offers, such as effects loops and Line Outs. I think a lot of six string players would like this amp. About the weight, you can't have it all. It's either two or three trips to the vehicle or get some casters or a dolly. I've been lugging these Fenders for the last few years. I'm 60 years old and they get heavier everday. But once I get there and catch my breath, I've got a sound. If you play well enough, some young guy will pack your amp for you. needless to say. I'm still packing mine. Eddie Malray

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 20 Nov 2002 7:35 pm

I tried a Tube Sweetener (not on the job). Used one channel of it's two channel unit. I thought it got me about 1/2 way to a tube amp. However, I would like to check it out once more and put each of it's channels into seperate amps and roll the spice control to far left into one amp and far right into the other amp and blend them. Maybe this stereo setup would get me closer to a full tube amp?
Dennis

Larry Clark · Post by **Larry Clark** » 21 Nov 2002 5:55 am

How about a Ranger with a 15"BW. Run the controls in a double row and put it in a 20"x20" cab to reduce a little weight and bulk. Still too heavy?...make it a separate head and cabinet. It might appeal to the 6 string jazz market as well.

Chris Brooks · Post by **Chris Brooks** » 21 Nov 2002 6:53 am

I'll second Larry's request.

Chris

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now living in the Ocean State ....