Midi

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 8 Jun 2002 10:18 am

Hey everybody,

What's the latest on Midi Steel Guitar systems? Haven't heard anything for a while so I was just curious about the newest developements. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? Thanks.

Dennis

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 8 Jun 2002 7:24 pm

Here's a thread from an earlier time: http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum11/HTML/002145.html

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 9 Jun 2002 10:05 am

Chas,

Thanks for the reply. I haven't been on the Forum for a while so I'm a little behind on the latest Midi technology for pedal steel guitar. That was a great article you forwarded to me. It sounds like you've been doing a lot of experimenting on the subject.

I guess it's still going to be a while before someone starts building the pitch to midi pickups for our instrument. I play a 14-string steel so I know that one doesn't exist. I'll have to wait until the technology catches up with the times. There's still not enough of us steel guitar players around to warrant the need I guess.

Thanks again Chas for your response and keep up the good work.

Dennis

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 9 Jun 2002 2:21 pm

I've written to a number of developers (Roland, Lawrence pickups, etc) to see if they can at least duplicate the IVL 10 string pickup: No replies so far. I'm still looking for an IVL, however. My Roland GR-30 works fine on my 6 string guitar, but tracks too slow for steel. HJ www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 9 Jun 2002 2:40 pm

I've just read your article en re Axon AX-100, and the two GK pickups that you inter-related. A Forum member on the Mississippi Gulf Coast did that last year. I took one of my steels down there and tried it out: it tracks less than 1/2 of notes played. His Steelrider was much better, but not for sale. How can I get in touch with the maker of Axon AX-100 for more info? Thanks, Hugh

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 9 Jun 2002 10:39 pm

Dr. Hugh, here's the American (New Jersey) web site: http://www.musicindustries.com/axon/index.html
the main company is based in Germany.

Bruce Meyer · Post by **Bruce Meyer** » 10 Jun 2002 4:56 am

This may have been discussed already in another thread, and it probably is a lot harder than it sounds, but, what about just building copies of the IVL Steelriders?

In every thread where midi steel is discussed, no one has yet come up with a working alternative. It seems highly unlikely that any of the major manufacturers will invest the time and effort to create a midi steel unit, given the relatively very small steel guitar market. At least we know the IVL units work, which is better than nothing.

A number of us have the IVL schematics. About 5 years ago, someone at IVL told me that the schematics didn't include some key information -- which they would sell for $25,000. Has anyone looked into this?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 10 Jun 2002 6:32 am

I have an IVL Steelrider and, while there is limited useage for it, when I do use it, it is like no other electronic device ever created!
The ability to play piano, organ and string section parts with a pedal steel guitar is a truly exhilarating musical experience.
We should try to bring this technology back no matter what it takes!!!!!!!

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Jun 2002 7:23 am

If you take the money you would spend on steel-to-MIDI and buy a few piano lessons and a keyboard synth, you would sound better and have money left over.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 10 Jun 2002 3:16 pm

First: to Earnest - about keyboard lessons--you may be right in some cases, however, I play with all 5 fingers and use jazz piano voicings extensively; in fact, most of the music I read is for piano, bass & treble clefs. I do a lot with my GR-30 guitar synth, but could do much more with a steelrider. I don't have time to practice guitar and steel both; each requires two different muscle systems of the forearm. I'm told that there is a fellow in Vancoover who repairs the IVL pickups; he should be able to make one. The IVL itself contains a MYSTERY CHIP that no one can seem to figure out. For Bruce,Charles, and Tony: maybe we could get up a petition of a few thousand signatures and send it to IVL. I've heard that they wont talk to a steel guitar player on the phone! What do you think? --HUGH

Bruce Meyer · Post by **Bruce Meyer** » 10 Jun 2002 6:43 pm

Hugh

I think that the $25,000 IVL quoted me was for the plans for the "Mystery Chip". They did talk to me but that was 5 years ago. At this point, I'd be willing to go there if I thought we could make some progress. Anyone for renting a bus?

Ernest: Why would I want to take a step back and spend time learning piano? I already play the world's most expressive instrument and a better midi controller.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Jun 2002 7:44 pm

I think that even a beginning keyboard synth player can play faster, and with more accurate timing, than any guitar-to-MIDI system. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 10 Jun 2002 9:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If you take the money you would spend on steel-to-MIDI and buy a few piano lessons and a keyboard synth, you would sound better and have money left over.

I think that even a beginning keyboard synth player can play faster, and with more accurate timing, than any guitar-to-MIDI system. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No to #1, yes to #2 (except for the guitar player doing the demo for Axon at the NAMM show). Faster and more accurate doesn't replace lyrical. Piano and keys, in general, are percussion instruments, so in that regard, faster and accurate are important, but as we all know, the steel is inherantly more lyrical and expressive. My MIDI set up has a keyboard in front of the guitar and I'm using an E-IV Ultra sampler. The keys are great for on/off playing or just playing a long sample, but the tone wheel doesn't come close to replacing the bar for expression. Of course there are lyrical and expressive pianists and they aren't the beginners.

Where MIDI steel guitar shines is I can trigger a sample and use the bar for the subtle pitch shifting and vibrato that brings a lot more life to the sample and I have my volume pedal set up where I can contol the volume of the guitar as well as the CV to the volume of the sampler, so I can control the volume/expression of the sample in a way that is familiar and comfortable to me.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 10 Jun 2002 9:47 pm

"fast is good" but I don't mean playing too many notes. I mean that when you pick a string on a MIDI guitar, you need a fast response from your synth. At the very least, you need a consistent or predictable delay. Otherwise how can you play lyrically?

Piano and keys, in general, are percussion instruments, so in that regard, faster and accurate are important, but as we all know, the steel is inherantly more lyrical and expressive.

The steel may send a very lyrical MIDI note-on message but it is still just 3 bytes in a wire like the precussive note-on message from a keyboard.

Where MIDI steel guitar shines is I can trigger a sample and use the bar for the subtle pitch shifting and vibrato

I agree, as long as it works well. There are some cool pitch-wiggling controllers for keyboards too.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 11 Jun 2002 11:45 am

There are some cool pitch-wiggling controllers for keyboards too.

...but will they bend pitches in opposite directions at the same time EB? That is where I believe the PSG to have the advantage over other MIDI controllers specifically, and most instruments in general...

sure MIDI'd steel is a kludge, but it sure is a fun one...

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 11 Jun 2002 2:56 pm

but will they bend pitches in opposite directions at the same time EB?

Nope. The best you can do there is bend some of the notes in a chord (the ones you hold with your fingers) while holding the other pitches constant (with the sustain pedal). This type of selective pitch bend has been available on many polyphonic synths starting with the Rhodes-Arp Chroma in 1984.
Do you guys really have good results getting several sliding pitches into a MIDI synth? Pitch bend is a 14-bit message (2 data bytes) but most synths do not implement the LSB, so that small, slow pitch changes can get a bit grainy or zippery if you set the range for more than 2 or 3 semitones. It seems to me that you would want to set the bend range to, say, an octave or or two in order to implement what we do on the steel guiatr.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Jun 2002 4:14 pm

If you're bending pitches in opposite directions on the steel, are you twisting the bar? The axon doesn't track whammy bars, pedals and knees very well at all.

At the very least, you need a consistent or predictable delay. Otherwise how can you play lyrically?

Given the speed I play and what I'm playing, the lag time isn't noticable. (When I was young I was learning pipe organ, there, you have a noticable time lag between push the key/hear the sound.) If I was playing Orange Blossom Special with samples of oranges, it might be more of an issue.[This message was edited by chas smith on 11 June 2002 at 05:15 PM.]

Del Rangel · Post by **Del Rangel** » 24 Oct 2002 2:04 pm

Has there been any progress on MIDI pick-ups for Steel Guitar as of late. I know this topic has appeared and re-appeared a few times now, but just curious. I want to start putting together some material for a MIDI violin set-up and would really like to do it eventually for the PSG as well. Anyone out there MIDI-up their lapsteel yet?
Thanks.

Michael Brewer · Post by **Michael Brewer** » 31 Oct 2002 1:17 pm

I have said in the past that I would not post any news that I have until there is something positive to report. I met with a manufacturer from Europe at the NAMM show in Nashville last August. He promised me an experimental system sometime this year. We had a long conversation yesterday and if he is not stringing me along, I should have the system within two weeks. I already have ten and twelve string pickups ready to go.

I don't know anything about the system component sizes or any details. After I install one of my pickups and test the system, I will post a new thread.

I thought long and hard before I posted this message because I only have conversation and not hardware to report on. However, I would like everyone to know that I am still working on producing a working system

More later - hopefully.

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Mike Brewer

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 31 Oct 2002 5:19 pm

Bobbe Seymour has a MIDI'd lap steel that he uses for violin effects. Sounds great!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 1 Nov 2002 1:21 pm

If the MIDI controller supports different channels for each string, you should be able to get ascending and descending bends simultaneously by sending out multiple channels to a multitimbral synth.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 1 Nov 2002 1:37 pm

The IVL SteelRider supports a different channel for each string, if desired. Thanks to Michael Johnstone's suggestion, I run strings 1-6 on MIDI channels 1-6 and strings 7-12 again on MIDI channels 1-6 and can get multiple bends in different directions.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 3 Nov 2002 8:11 pm

Michael-Thanks for the update. I hope you can bring this to Market. Good luck!

There would be a lot more work for steel players if they had a Midi and could get one for a reasonable price.

For one thing , they could double on Keyboard with the Midi....al ?

Dennis Boyd · Post by **Dennis Boyd** » 3 Nov 2002 11:25 pm

Hi fellas,

It looks like a lot of people are showing some interest in this subject again, or still. Bruce, if need be, perhaps if there are 50 steel players willing to pitch in (get it, Pitch In-Midi Out) $500 each we could form a midi steel organization and purchase the rights to the IVL mystery chip.

We should support Michael in his endeavor to produce a new midi system for the pedal steel guitar. I wonder if there could be one for a 14-string instrument? Well, I can dream can't I? Good luck to you all. Earnest, you should think about this, seriously. Take care guys.

Dennis

Peewee Charles · Post by **Peewee Charles** » 5 Nov 2002 3:25 pm

Many years ago, aroud 1986 I had a dream of allowing the Steel Guitar to be midi capable. At the time I was touring the world with Gord Lightfoot & felt the need to be able to take the steel guitar into a new era. Roland had come out with the GR700, midi guitar controller. I was determined that it could be fitted to the Steel Guitar. After contacting Roland, there was no interest as they felt it was a very small market & the costs would not support it. This made me more determined to come up with a steel midi interface. I pursued it, & went to a company in Hamilton, Ontario & paid them to build a 6 string pickup, proper spacing, that would work with most steel guitars & the Roland Gr700. After much time, we came up with a pickup & a unit called The Steel Trap! It worked, but was only capable of using 6 strings. It was pretty amazing to fulfill this dream & play any midi sounds from any module on the steel! My dream had been realized! I had the opportunity of performing for Casio at the NAMM Show in Chicago & brought the unit to Nashville to Bobby Seymours store, demonstrating the unit for many of Nashville's finest, Paul Franklin, Jimmie Crawford, John Hughey & even presnted it to Conway thanks to John, Lyoyd Green & Buddie Emmons, at his house(boy was I nervous!)! Spent much time at Jimmie Crawfords with many players as well! It was truly an exciting experience in my career to play in front of my idols! Next, to be able to convert it to 10 strings was the cahallenge! My contact with IVL, a highly technological company, developed the SteelRider! It was marketed through Digitech, who I had the opportunity of meeting in Salt Lake City & was a clinician at numerous shows. In my travels with Lightfoot, I had the opportunity of using the SteelRider worldwide, midied to nmany different units. At the time, the Akai S900, with some incredible samples, & did all the string arrangements on Gords major hits. It was truly amazing to be filling a 20,000 seat auditorium with these sounds, all generated by the Steel Guitar. Unfortunately, there was not enough demand for the unit at the time & the costs were too expensive which led to IVL discontuning the Steel Rider. It would be wonderful for all us Steel Players to have the capability of taking the Steel Guitar into the new ea once again, will it happen? I truly would like to help bring back the dream I had so may years ago!! All the best to everyone! I will post my wesite & you can hear my arrangement of Ghosbusters, done on the original 6 string unit through the Roland GR700. Click on music & scroll to Ghostbusters. Al sounds were done with the midi steel unit, except bass & drum parts, sequenced. All the best to everyone & Health & Happiness!!
Ed http://members.rogers.com/music12/index.html