Question for all you session pro's

Tony Harris · Post by **Tony Harris** » 25 Sep 2002 3:18 am

Most of the big name artists list a REAL drummer on their albums. How often do you guys go into a session where programmed drums are used instead? Or maybe you don't know, if you're brought in as an overdub? I ask this because I've just recorded a 'jazzy' album at home and found it difficult to program jazz drums to sound convincing - I guess country/rock drums must be easier...
Thanks.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Sep 2002 5:10 am

I play a fair amount of sessions in NYC so my experience is limited to my area. Many sessions use a drum machine as an enhanced click along with a real drummer. Sometimes bits of the machine are kept. Or different parts are used as triggers for other drum sounds. Often there is a real drummer that has a phrase looped for the basic tracks. Most of the sessions I have been getting for the last few years do not use machines or looping.

I would be interested in hearing what the latest trend in recording drums is in Nashville. It seems like that in NYC using loops, samples and machines has been out of favor for the last few years unless the recordings are being done as a full on Pro Tools slice and dice extravaganza. Even then they record a live drummer that they screw up later.

For the jazz type stuff the drummer is thought of as a musician that interacts with the rest of the ensemble. So far the best machines are not as good as the best drummers.

Bob

[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 25 September 2002 at 06:11 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 25 Sep 2002 7:35 am

(I'm certainly not a 'session pro', but, like Bob, I do work a few in my area)
My experience is similar to what Bob describes. There are kinda two scenarios:
1. Mostly done live -- sometimes overdubbing instrument solos and vocals
2. Mostly done piecemeal -- a track or two at a time

Sometimes you'll find both on a single project. #2 is much more 'mixdown friendly' and often starts by recording a click track (or drum machine) and maybe a rhythm guitar and scratch vocal to use as a reference. I can't recall any sessions I've played on that were intended for release of more than a few hundred copies that didn't use live drums. Unless you're doing techno or hip-hop (I don't get calls for many of those sessions), even high quality equipment -- DDrums or whatever -- sound phony to a lot of people.

Also, speaking of D-Drums, you mention 'programmed'. There's more than one way to sequence drums. If you use a program (like BandInABox, etc.) or do it by hand, the trax may sound phony and contrived, but there are full drumsets with midi triggers built in that can capture many of the nuances of a drummer's performance. I usually don't like the sound of the samples used for playback, but they have really gotten more realistic over the past 5 or 10 years. The big advantage is that when you get that PERFECT TAKE, except for that one kick drum beat that is noticeably off a hair, you can fix it very easily without retracking.

Just a few thoughts.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 25 September 2002 at 08:43 AM.]

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 25 Sep 2002 2:00 pm

If anyone needs live drums for your
project, I can do it for you. All
I need is a .wav file of the song.
I can put the individual drum tracks on a CD & send it back to you. Then they can be imported back into your project that's on
your computer or hard disc recorder.
I've been doing it for a few guys already
who can't stand the programmed stuff.

Mark Decker · Post by **Mark Decker** » 25 Sep 2002 4:56 pm

Tony,

What you are hearing and sensing is true. Having worked some as a "jazz drummer", I can tell you that jazz playing is a more "elastic" (if you will) way of playing drums, compared to country or rock things.

Having said that, acknowledging the difference is not intended here as a value judgement of any kind. But Bob is correct. Machines can't do it (play jazz).

Tony Harris · Post by **Tony Harris** » 26 Sep 2002 2:13 am

Thanks for your help guys. I know that there's nothing like a whole band with a good drummer playing together, but my little home projects so far have involved just me playing almost everything. For that 'jazz' project, I took most of my drumtracks from midi files - some sounded more realistic than others (maybe played in from an electronic kit?), but it didn't turn out so bad. For my next project - country/rock - I reckoned that the more straight-ahead patterns might be easier to make convincing. I'm pretty happy with the actual drum samples from my Alesis. Only having an old hardware sequencer, I find it best to edit around whole chunks - verse, chorus etc. Any ideas where to find the best midi file drum patterns or whole songs?