Tone change

ArtPalazzini · From: Torrington , Ct. Litchfield

I have noticed that a tone change occurs when playing softly(as in a room in my house)and then going to ,say mid-pedal, I hear a distinct change in the amp`s responce. Gone are the warm silky highs and up comes the bass tones to which has been oh the verge of muddy. Ctl's ... bass..+6 mid..-6 shift@just before the 800 mark highs.. 0 pres@=3.. Any comments as to what I am doing wrong will be appreciated. ( Emmons LLII S10 Goodrich Vol.. Peavey 1000.. Boss RV-3..

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

What's the total length of cord you're using from the amp to the guitar? What are your volume settings at the amp?

Use good cords and keep the total cord length as short as possible, run the amp at a relatively high volume (use your pedal for control---not the amp!), and the the problems you describe will disappear.

Jon Light (deceased) · From: Saugerties, NY

Art--I assume that the 1000 has the same front panel pedal patch as the 400. It's called the pre-eq patch on the Session 400. You ought to try this. You would go straight from guitar to amp input. Then from pre eq send jack to pedal, and from pedal back to pre eq return jack.
This assures an even signal from guitar to amp.
On the other hand amps and speakers do sound differently at different levels. This is why living room volume has little bearing on real world amp settings.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

You do loose low end frequencies thru
the pot in your pedal as you lower it.
That's why some guys use additional
"bumper" pot's to restore it. Once
the bass response is the same thru-out
the pedal travel, then you can set your
amp how you like it, & it'll stay that way!

------------------
Push/Pull audio (C6th mp3)

[This message was edited by Jay Ganz on 05 May 2002 at 02:27 PM.]

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I always found a tone change on my 500 Allen Bradley pot when I reached about mid pedal to full on. I set my amp hotter to avoid having to push the volume pedal to that point.
As of two years ago, I purchased a Hilton pedal. It has no tone change from off to full on. Plus, I found it cleaned up the tone (eliminated a dulling effect to my tone that I didn't realize was there until I switched pedals).
Dennis

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Jay, just what is a "Bumper" Pot? Please explain exactly what it is and exactly how it is installed and used. Art, there is one good thing, you are able to hear the difference. That is a "good" thing! Think how terrible it would be if you couldn't hear the difference, and lots of other people could! Dennis, thanks for the kind words about my pedal. How is everything in Iowa?

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

"Bumper Pot" ...sounds like the 60's after a good harvest?

Hi Kieth...Iowa gigs are slim. I'm in the middle of coaching HS soccer right now, so the guitar is in the case

Have you started working on a tube preamp yet?

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

What you may have noticed is partially attributed (if not totally) to the hearing response curve of the human ear. At low sound levels the ear hears much less bass. As SPL (sound pressure level) increases the response curve start to become flat, hence you are hearing more bass than at lower levels. The low volume curve is referred to as an "A" weighted curve, while the higher volume (more flat curve) is the "C" weighted curve. At higher volumes you need less bass on the amp to get a similar response that you had at lower levels. The human ear is an amazing thing!

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 09 May 2002 at 07:54 PM.]

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

No Dennis, I have not been working on any tube pre-amps. I have been working on a dobro effect. That was the recent subject of my term paper at school. Unlike some dobro effects that use only midrange frequency and some sort of a wooden ,or plastic bar, my electronics has a electronic resonator. With my electronic circuit you won't need to use a special bar, as your regular bar will work fine. The only dobro effect, that I am aware of, to use a resonator simulator in their unit was one that used a "cat food" can. Yes, a actual cat foot can. I'm not using a cat food can, as I get the resonator sound with electronics. No wonder you stay so slim, trim and young looking Dennis. Running around coaching scoccer will keep you slim trim and young looking.

ArtPalazzini · From: Torrington , Ct. Litchfield

Thanks guys for your input. Will try differnt volume levels and amp settings. After a few more gigs, I'll have enuff $ to get a Hilton pedal.Just for the record, I started a trio.. steel, acoustic bass and drums. It's a neat combination, but playing at much softer leveals is when I really noticed the tonal change. All instrumentals no singer at this time.Going for the dinner crowd and lounges. thanks....Art

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Art:
Instead of investing in a new pedal why don't you try a Goodrich Matchbox. I've used one for years and really like it. Even Buddy Emmons endorses it on his web site. It has an active volume and tone control on it (the 7a model). This feature is real handy as your venue changes. The model 60 Match Box just comes with the tone control.

Erv

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 06 May 2002 at 07:49 AM.]

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 06 May 2002 at 07:52 AM.]

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Keith,
You know....it's what Weldon, JayDee, &
a bunch of other guys use on their pedals.
You take an extra 500K pot with the middle
terminal & one of the end terminals jumped
across the input & output of your main
pot. Then just dial it in to increase
your low end to where you want it.
It's an old trick actually.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Keith...I'm too old too run anymore. More to the fact that I have no time for food..too busy going from work to soccer and home around 8pm :~( You're the one that's been working out and using hair color! :~) I should consider the hair color too.
I would think the extra pot to add bass to the volume pedal would also add dulling? I'm always looking for the cleaner sound. Also the warmer tone (like tubes). Problem has always been sacrificing clean headroom with tubes which is why I'm interested in a tube preamp to hook up with a transistor amp.
Sounds like an interesting project with the dobro simulator.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Dennis,
No dulling at all. It doesn't affect
the highs whatsoever.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Yes Dennis, I did work out quite a bit a while back. After all Dennis, I'm, no spring chicken. Black Shoe polish does wonders for grey,or white, hair on your head. Trouble is, you have to be really careful when it rains Dennis! "SMILE"!!! Jay, this 2nd pot-idea, used in addition to a volume pot has been discussed several times on this forum. In the past I have asked several who made posts about the subject to send me hookup diagrams. Several did send me digrams, and some have posted diagrams. I noticed that none of the hook up diagrams were ever the same,and some wouldn't even work. This was the case,even though there were just 3 termanials on each pot. I could never pin down the actual diagram, nor could I confirm that anyone was actually using the "Weldon Modification". Jay, does the pedal you use have "two pots" or are you just posting stuff you have heard about? Just curious? You can slightly change the taper of a pot by connecting a resistor, or another pot. One thing is for certain, when you add another pot to the signal chain, you create more capacitance. When a magnetic guitar pickup sees more capacitance you lose highs. A tone control cuts highs, and a tone control is made by using a capacitor. If you lose highs out of the pickup, you can get the highs back artificially by turning up trebble on your effect unit or amp. Still, that is artificial highs, not real highs coming out of the pickup. Which tastes best, artificial ice cream, or real ice cream? You be the judge.

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Keith,
Yeah, to be honest with ya, I cheat a
little bit. When dialing in that 2nd
pot to the amount of low end I wanted,
it always ended up about the same
resistance reading. So, I ended up
using a resistor in most of my old Emmons pedals. I know extra resistance should
cut highs as well, so I figured on sticking
in a 250pf or 120pf in there as well
to let the highs back thru. But, actually
I notice no loss in the highs even without
the capacitor. On the volume control
of an amp, the brightness cap does make
a heckuva difference, but for some reason
the pot in the pedal doesn't seem to affect
the high end in the same way.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Jay, a resistor would not cut the highs, unless it was wired in parallel where it cut the resistance of the pot. Usually, high resistance helps high impedance and a magnetic pickup must see high impedance. Don't know how you would wire a resitor across the different terminals of a pot without creating parallel resistance. The only way I see would be on the input or output otherwise it would be resistance in parallel. Parallel resistance lowers resistance to near the lowest resistor value. Lower resistance, would lower impedance, and cause the pickup to load more, decreasing highs, and increasing bass. The "pf" capacitors would have an effect on the highs and lows, depending on which terminal the capacitor was hooked on, and where the signal went out of the capacitor. If the capacitor went to ground that would make more lows. If the capacitor was in line and was not hooked to ground, that would appear to cut lows. What value resistor do you use, and what terminals do you hook it to? Say terminal one on the pot is the input from the guitar. The center terminal on the pot is the signal out terminal. Say terminal 3 on the pot is to ground. Which of these 3 terminals do you hook the "pf" capacitor to?

Jay Ganz · From: Out Behind The Barn

Keith,
Check your email, I'll give you the
whole deal of what I went through.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Jay, I didn't get the e-mail. Did you send it to klhilton@aol.com?

Dave Robbins · From: Cottontown, Tnn. USA (deceased)

Keith,
check with Mike Cass. He always uses the "bumper pot" and recommends it highly. I have used his and it does what it is suppose to do as far as I'm concerned. It isn't "electronic rocket science" and is very simple to install. It's old school, and works, and doesn't require a "degree", nor any electronic wizardry.

Check with Mike. He can give you all the details.

Dave

Mike Brown · From: Meridian, Mississippi USA

The "pre eq patch" insert point was intended for patching your volume pedal into the circuit "before" the equalization controls, but after the first gain stage. What this accomplishes is no tonal change when you move your volume pedal and maximum signal from your pickup. It also helps in removing the loading effect when a volume pedal is moved forward and backward(up and down)and reduces loss of high frequency when patching it between the output of the guitar and the input of the amp.

This insert point has been incorporated into our steel amps since 1980. All that it takes to connect your volume pedal is one extra shielded cable. The patch procedure is to patch one cable from the output of your guitar directly into the input of the amp. Using the second cable, patch from the SEND/ FROM or OUT(depending on the amp model)jack in the pre eq patch insert point to the input of the volume pedal and with the third cable, patch from the output of your pedal back into the RETURN/TO or IN jack(depending on the amp model).

We have incorporated this "volume insert patch" point into the current Nashville 1000 amplifier. No other steel amp manufacturer has this feature. In some cases, this patching procedure will eliminate the high costs of optional impedence matching devices.

I've heard players comment that this "is too much" trouble, but they don't seem to mind hooking up the external devices that clamp onto the leg of the steel and the additional expense.

I recommend that you try this out if you haven't already. I think that you will appreciate its benefits.

Mike Brown
Peavey Electronics Corporation

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Jay, thanks for e-mailing me the information. About 3 years ago I tried what I thought was every possible hookup combination to modify a pot pedal to get the,so called, "Weldon Modification". I hooked up every possible combination with different resistance values and capacitor values. I simply couldn't hear anything "mystical, or magical". I must admit that I didn't try "pf" values as high as Jay suggests--"250pf". When I get time I will try the combinations with larger "pf" values. Mike Brown is correct, as usual. Mike's solution will solve the problems Art is hearing. The root of Art's problem is that his guitar pickup is being run from his pickup through a voltage divider--"pot"--first. A"pot" is a voltage divider, that's what it does, divides voltage. By definition when you divide voltage you change impedance. By definition when you change impedance you change tone. Therefore, with a pot, as you change volume you change tone. That is what Art hears, and Art don't like the tone change he hears. Thank goodness Art's hearing, and musical development is such that he can hear the difference. There are so many who can't, bless their hearts. The solution to this problem is to run the signal to a pre-amp first. There is a pre-amp in Peavey amps where you can run to the pre-amp before you go to your pot pedal. This is a good method if you don't want to buy another type of pre-amp, and you don't mind running 3 hookup cords. Mike failed to mention that some of these pre-amps that clip on to the leg of a steel guitar do two things his method won't. #1. Most of these pre-amps that clip on the leg of a steel guitar have signal strength gain controls, where you can set the strength of the signal. With the Peavey 3 cord hookup you plug into a "fixed value", and can not alter the output signal strength. It makes a difference when you can alter signal strength, because all pickups are not the same. It makes a difference because people use different lengths of guitar cords. Even the type of guitar cord will make a difference. With the pre-amps that clip on the leg of the steel you can alter the strength of the signal.
#2.Most of these pre-amps that clip on the leg of a steel come with a tone control. This makes it handy to "tweek" tone.
With Mike Brown's 3 cord hookup method or the little box that hooks on the leg of a steel, you still run through a "pot". I happen to know a method where you can eliminate all of the above, including the scratchy pot.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

What Ken said.

Ken Fox · From: Nashville GA USA

Thanks, Donny. I needed that!

[This message was edited by Ken Fox on 09 May 2002 at 07:56 PM.]

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I get the idea from Keith and Mike's comments that running the three wire patch eliminates tone differences from a volume pedal, right?

If that is true, and one hooked up that way, other than pots wearing out, wouldn't that eliminate the "need" for Keith's Hilton pedal?

Since switching to a Stereo Steel amp and Boss GX-700 processor, I run my volume pedal in the effects loop of the processor. Actually it's a little more complicated than that, as I sort of run the amp in the loop as well. I no longer feel the need for a MatchBox or other enhancements, so I guess the signal routing has something to do with it.

I got the idea for the signal routing from a fellow Forumite. For those that might be interested, here it is:

Guitar -> GX input -> GX loop send -> volume pedal -> SS input -> SS effect send (one cable) -> GX loop return -> GX output (stereo with two cables) -> SS effect return.

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