Hilton volume pedal with Webb amp

Paul McClure · From: Penfield, NY, USA

I found a message posted in August, 1999 regarding the Hilton pedal and Webb amps (see below). I just bought a Hilton pedal and I'm having similar problems with my Webb amp (and Princeton Reverb too). The high end is very thin and brittle. Has anybody had any luck adjusting a Webb amp in the last year or so? I'm looking for that warm, full tone in the high end with my Sho-Bud, Webb (or Princeton), Boss DD-5, Boss Compressor, Hilton pedal.
Thanks for any help,
This is the previous post from Aug, 99:
...We recently had trouble hooking my new pedal to a Webb. I think the problem is that the Webb amps have a line level input, and a instrument level input. The Goodrich box, like my Digital Sustain makes the signal stronger. This may be to much for the instrument level input. It could also cause tone changes. That is also the reason we were having trouble with my pedal, because it also creates a little gain. Also, I don't know what the input impedance is on a Webb, that could change tone,depending on strength of input signal. The people at Webb may not of designed the input to take todays modern stronger signals from effect units and pre-amps. Frenchy would know more than me.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I don't use either but from what I've gleaned from the Forum, a Goodrich MatchBox or similar is not needed with a Hilton Pedal. That may be what is causing your problem, if you use one that is.

Pete Grant · From: Auburn, CA, USA

That's my recollection. I have two Webbs and a Hilton and have no problem at all. The Hilton is one fine pedal.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Remove the Goodrich device if you are using one. You don't need it with the Hilton pedal. You will actually overdrive the signal if you don't remove it. Try using the low input on the Webb.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Webb amps are great amps. It is my understanding that the Webb amps have a instrument level input and a line level input. A instrument level input means it takes a signal coming from a magnetic wound pickup-only. A line level input means it takes a signal coming from something that has been pre-amped, meaning the signal has been strengthened. A pre-amp boosts the magnetic wound pickup signal to a stronger voltage. Usually 1 volt or less. Signal strength, hence voltage and current, from a magnetic pickup is much less than that of a signal that has been boosted by a pre-amp. This is why it is very important which input you use on a Webb amp. Just about everything that is powered has a pre-amp. The problem nodays is all the pre-amps in line from the guitar to the amplifier. Many musicians don't know how to control their pre-amps in line. For example: A Peavey Pro FexII has a volume control on the front, a output control on the back and each part of every program has a volume setting. If you use a pre-amp like the Goodrich Matchbox with the Hilton pedal, that is OK just as long as the signal is not over driven. The same is true of using my Digital Sustain with the Hilton Pedal. Yes, using either of these devices is pre-amping a pre-amp and may seem redundant. One advantage is the player can adjust signal strength on either the Matchbox or the Digital Sustain. As more pre-amps are added the more chance you have of over driving signal strength. I might mention that the Hilton pedal has a adjustment on the bottom marked "Volume". This is actually the signal strenth coming out of the pedal. In theory you can turn the output of the Hilton pedal down, down,down even to off. This means it is impossible to get the signal so strong you over drive it. Now back to the Webb amp: I would suppose you may be plugging into the instrument level input on the Webb amp,instead of the line level input. Even if you are plugging into the line level input, you could possibly be over driving the signal. Over driving it by having too many pre-amps turned up too high. I have many customers who use Webb amps with my products. If you over drive the input signal on a amp, you usually get distortion. Before distortion you could possibly get some tone change. Hope this information helps.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Bravo Keith! This is what I was trying to say in my post. It takes a real expert like Keith Hilton to explain it in such a consise
way. I own a Webb and play through the line input just for the reasons Keith described above. What a great forum we have.

[This message was edited by Kevin Hatton on 30 January 2002 at 08:03 PM.]

Paul McClure · From: Penfield, NY, USA

Thanks, everybody for your responses. Keith - I really appreciate all the information you provided. I tried all the suggestions I could and things did improve. My Webb is a model 6-14E (bought around 1980). It has a sensitivity dial (I leave it at 10) and two inputs labeled "high" and "low" - is the low one the "line level input" you refer to? I tried that but there was very little sustain. I use only two effects between my volume pedal and guitar. One is a Boss DD-5 (digital delay), the other is a Boss CSS-3 (Compression Sustain). Are these acting as pre-amps? I took out the compressor and really noticed the loss of sustain. I really like that box - so I put it back in and started changing settings on it. Things started getting a little better at that point. I lowered the level on it - from about 2 oclock to straight up 12. Possibly that was overdriving the amp?
Anyway - I changed settings on both boxes (leaving my Webb settings at 3(high), 6(mid) and 5(bass)) and got improvement. I still need to tweak more.
Thanks again for help guys. I've been getting back into playing in the last year or so after 15 years away. We never had anything like this forum back then. This is an amazing resource and a really nice way to learn from the experts...

Paul McClure · From: Penfield, NY, USA

Kevin - can I ask you what model your Webb amp is and what setting you use on it? Do you use the equalizer?
thanks,

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

Paul, I do what Tommy White was doing most of the time. I have a 614-E. Best steel amp I've ever used. I have the equalizer on, but keep it set flat most of the time. Bass is 7, treble is 2, mid range is 2. Sensitivity MUST be set at 10 according to Jim Webb. I use Lawrence 710 pick-ups in my guitar. They are very strong. Bill told me to use the low (line) level input in the amp and it is better than the high input. I use a pre-amped stomp distortion pedal in my chain before the amp. Its off most of the time but still provides a pre-amped signal even when off. If I put it in the high input it would distort. I use my amp settings the same most of the time because I go through the mains in our band. Even if it doesn't sound right to me in certain rooms on stage, I keep the settings because I know that the results through the mains is exactly what I am looking for using these settings. Our sound man knows my board settings. Different rooms will make your amp sound different with the same settings. I've confirmed this by listening to my own rig being played by other players with me sitting out front at sound check. What you here on stage is not necessarily what you sound like out front.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Paul, I really don't know which input is for a magnetic pickup and which one is for a line level signal. From what others say, sounds like the low input is the line level input. The two effects you mentioned have pre-amps and I am pretty sure you can control the signal strength coming out of them. Some of the real cheap "stomp" box type effects had no way of controling the pre-amp output signal strength. To get your best sound,without distortion, will require experimenting with different output signal strengths on each piece of equipment, even the volume leve of your amp. You should be able to get a quality sound, but you may have to turn stuff down. Lots of people use the 710 pickup with my pedal. The 710 is a great pickup and it is not the problem causing the signal to be over driven. Combinations of different equipment require experimenting to where the pieces work together as a team for a great sound. We live in a time where there is lots of equipment in line. Musicians have to figure out how to best use all the great new gear. One of the challenges of people who manufacture electronic music devices is a problem called seqencing. It is kind of off the subject, but it is still yet related. Just had a long conversation with Hartley Peavey on the subject of the many things people have in line. Sequencing problems involve the powering up and powering down of several devices all connected together by a guitar cord. When you power up, or power down, not all the devices come on or go off at the same time. This means there can be a potential difference in voltage up and down stream. This means it is easy to see 120 volts AC coming down a guitar cord. Protection of electronics, and sequencing events, is what Hartley Peavey and I talked at length about. It is impossible to protect against everything. I smiled when Hartley said, "You would not belive how many people we have had hook 120VAC-house current directly to speakers". No Hartley, you can't protect against everything.

Paul McClure · From: Penfield, NY, USA

thanks again guys - I'm still working on it - but it is getting better...

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

My Webb 6-14 E (the standard steel model) has two inputs, "HI" and "LO". The difference between them is simply a resistor. I use the "LO" input in my living room, and the "HI" input on stage.

To my knowledge, the "LO" input is not a "line level" input. It simply connects through a resistor to the same point as the "HI" input, so that you can run the controls at the same positions without being so loud.

I always thought that "line level" implied low impedence as well as a higher signal level. The Webb does not have a low impedence input. My steel works fine in either input with either of my Goodrich volume pedals. The only difference is the volume level coming out of the speaker.

------------------

Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

By the way, here are my Webb settings, straight from last week's gig at the Old Vic:



Sens Vol Treb Mid Bas Rev  sw  eq eq eq eq eq


  4   4   7   3.5  3  2.5   2   2  1  0  2  3

I was using the Williams with 710 pickups and a Goodrich pot pedal (no effects). Several band members complimented me on the tone of the rig, and I thought it sounded pretty good, too!

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Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Just a resistor different, that is interesting Bobby. This subject got me interested enough to contact Mike Brown of Peavey. Mike told me that Peavey has always had high, and low, inputs on their amps. The new Nashville 1000's are marked high and low. The older Nashville 400's ,and other Peavey amps, had the high and low inputs but they were not marked. For example, on the Nashville 400, the #1 input is the high and the #2 input is the low. Mike told me if you plug in two instruments, into #1 and #2, this automatically makes everything low. Mike said the high input is for low level signals, like from a magnetic pickup, and the low input is for pre-amped signals. The terms low and high might easily be confused with the term "impedance." For a long time that's what I thought it meant, instead of voltage and current. "Impedance" is not the same thing as voltage and current. I think the important thing here is the understanding of how to control signal strengh from the guitar to the amp. Sounds easy, but I have found that many don't know how to do it. Most modern effect units have multiple ways the user must control signal. I can't tell you how many people I have had to tell--- on the Pro FexII there is a input control, a output control, and volume controls on each phase of each program. Get just one of these "jacked" up to high and you get signal distortion. The Pro Fex II is one of the more simple effect units to operate, there are many much more complex units. Usually a amplifier input is designed to work over a pretty wide range of voltage and current. I don't know the exact input range difference between a Webb, Peavey, Fender, or Evans. I would say the most important thing here is not the input tollerance difference of these amps, but the ability of the user to understand how to control signal strength from his modern effect units. Just my 2 cents.

Jim Smith · From: Midlothian, TX, USA

I'm certainly no electronics tech, but if I remember right, there was only a resistor between the two inputs on an old Fender Twin I used to have. I think it was activated with a switchable input jack on the second input.

Paul McClure · From: Penfield, NY, USA

Thanks for the settings Bobby - I'll give them a try...

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