Push-pull Emmons thru 12" speakers

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 22 Dec 2001 11:12 pm

I just recently discovered that my push-pull Emmons (with the original single-coil pickup) seems to sound a lot better to my ear thru the Peavey Scorpion 12" speakers than thru the 15" Black Widows that I normally use. Same amp, different speaker but still open-back baffle. Also it seems a lot easier to dial in the tone with the 12's, simply run the bass control about 3/4 open and set all the other tone controls flat. The sound is reminiscent of the Fender Twin Reverb sound of yesteryear, somewhat penetrating but very pleasant to the ear. I have only tried this in the house, NOT out on any jobs.

My push-pull always sounded pretty good thru a 15" speaker, so does my LeGrande with the L-710, but I'm tempted to start running the push-pull thru 12's on the local gigs. Am I wasting my time, blowing smoke, or violating a cardinal rule of steel guitar by doing this? Anyone other Emmons push-pull players have a similar experience with 12" speakers? I'm tempted to build a twin-twelve open-back cabinet and set it up to run at 4 ohms, but I don't want to spend the money and then wind up with a bad sound 50' out front where everybody can hear it except me!

Tim R.[This message was edited by Tim Rowley on 22 December 2001 at 11:13 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Dec 2001 8:04 am

Tim, I have Scorps in my Peavey. Before I installed a mod kit in the amp, it was a marginal steel amp, at best. Now that it's moded, and the low end isn't being "choked off", I get compliments on the sound. At some point, I'll probably try different speakers, just to see if I can get any more "improvement".

Supposedly, the Scorps are "voiced" for lead guitar. I think this just means they aren't very good on the low end (which lead players are seldom concerned with, anyway). The bottom line is...if they sound good to you, with whatever amp you're using (you never bothered to say) use 'em.

The only advantage of a 15" over a 12" is a little more low end. Most guys who play an Emmons are like the lead player...they could care less about lows!

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 23 Dec 2001 9:37 am

Most guys who play an Emmons are like the lead player...they could care less about lows!

Donny! Sheesh, we were getting along so well, and then you had to...

Seriously, I did a little experiment and played one of my 1965 PP's through two 1965 Standel Studio X's (Tens) in my music room the other day. The Studio X is similar to a Fender Vibrolux in power, only transistorized. One of the Studios has two 10" Fender Blue Labels, the other was modified with two 12" Scorpions.

The amp with the 10s sounded fine at low levels, but the one with the 12s sounded MUCH better, including some very nice low end. Of course, the Scorpion is a heavier, more powerful speaker than a Fender Blue Label. The relatively low power of the amplifier probably makes it not useful for anything but sessions or lessons.

The combination of the two amps was exceptional, however. There was a natural delay between the two without any effects in between the amps, just the spring reverbs of the amps. Of course, the mid-60's Standel is noted for excellent separation between highs, mids, and lows; but running the two together seems to accentuate the effect.

Mike Cass is noted for running two 1965 Standel Customs (with 15's), and that's the sound I was searching for. I "sorta" achieved it, but with less power than Mike gets from his two Customs.

FWIW, the sound Buddy got on "Touch My Heart" was obtained from a 65 PP (the "wagon") played through a Standel Custom and a Gibson Reverb (according to Cass, I haven't talked to Buddy about this topic).

Anyway, if I were one of y'all who are queer for the Fender Twin Reverb and still have the stock Fender speakers, I would put a couple of Scorpions in that sucker and I bet it would sound awesome. And of course, it would make the amp with the worst weight to power ratio even heavier!

Excuse my rambling. Y'all can get back on topic now, I guess.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 23 December 2001 at 09:41 AM.]

Jay Ganz · Post by **Jay Ganz** » 23 Dec 2001 11:58 am

I've played mine thru my old '65 Twin
Reverb with two 12's. Then I hooked the
amp to a seperate 1-15 cabinet. The
extra lows do tend to overshadow other
frequencies a little, but it depends
which tone you prefer. Each has it's
own advantage depending on what room
you happen to be playing in.

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<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/66EmE9.mp3></a>

<a href=http://members.localnet.com/~jsganz/65EmE9a.mp3>"Quick Lick" </a> (mp3 audio)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 23 Dec 2001 5:19 pm

Oh well Herb, I can't say the right thing all the time!

Every player I know will tell you that the Emmons is a "High-End" guitar. (LOL!)

Enough of the humor...anyhow, I've always admired the crystal highs of the Emmons. They sound really clean, almost bell-like. If I was shopping for an ax with nice lows, on the other hand, I'd pick a Sho~Bud, or an MSA maybe. They seem to have a fuller sound, with less emphasis on the highs.

As far as sound preference, it's each to his own. And after almost 40 years of playing, I'm still lookin' for "my own sound".

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 24 Dec 2001 2:57 am

Hmmm, My 71 PP Emmons sounded much better when I took the two 12" D120-F JBL's out of my Twin and put in one 15" JBL K-130.

But, I have a rack system with two 12" Peavey 1203 BW speakers and it blows my Nashville 400 15" speaker away (and the old JBL D120-F's that I still have, mounted in ported stereo system cabinets). The 12" BW speakers have better overall freq response and projection.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 24 Dec 2001 4:26 am

Interesting comments all....FWIW I played a Bud for 18 years, and loved the sound but hated the maintenance as both me and the guitar got older, so I began looking for a replacement. I tried all the demo's at the shows for two years but I still couldn't make a decision.

I finally made a trip to Dallas to the Carter store where they had three or four guitars on the floor with the new BCT. John Fabian played those guitars for me while I listened, eyes closed so I wouldn't be influenced visually. They all sounded good, but one in particular stood out and exactly duplicated the sound of my old Sho-Bud, so I bought it even though I would have preferred another color.

I haven't tried 12" speakers, but with minimal tweaking my amps with 15" Peavy, JBL, or Altec, all sound (to me) about the same as the Standel Customs that I used to use.

If there is a point to my wandering, it is that we are so fortunate today that whatever sound we are "listening for" can be found.

My thanks and appreciation to all the manufacturers and choices of steel guitars and amplifiers available today.....may you all have a successful New Year. www.genejones.com [This message was edited by Gene Jones on 24 December 2001 at 05:18 AM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 24 Dec 2001 7:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I have only tried this in the house, NOT out on any jobs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very important point, imho. I could be wrong, but I've come to believe that you can tweak, and listen to and amp all day long in your living room or a music store, and it tells you almost nothing about how it will act on stage, cutting through the band, etc. For what it's worth...
-John

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 24 Dec 2001 8:08 am

Good point, John. FWIW, I always try to practice at home with the same equipment I use on jobs. That way it sounds the same or very close to the same.

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 24 Dec 2001 10:33 pm

John and Jack,

I concur most wholeheartedly, I only tried this in my house so far. I'm just a little bit apprehensive to try the 12" idea out on the job because we no longer mike the amps so I have no idea of what the tone would be out front. Actually I was hoping that someone else had already tried this in a club setting and they could give some idea as to fullness or pleasantness of tone, etc. Having been a musician for 30 years now, I'm well aware that tone on the bandstand does not generally equal tone out front. Thanks for all the input so far and if there are some 12" speaker users out there, please chime in with your prospective.

Tim R.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 28 Dec 2001 6:30 am

Tim, In a small club situation I use a Twin with factory 12's unmiked. It does the job and if I have to play guitar, too, I only need one amp. I have an '85 pp and the tone I get is really nice. I can also use and have used it in bigger rooms when I know I don't have to play the volume war game with the guitar player. I tried a 1501 with it and couldn't tell enough difference to justify hauling another piece of gear to the gig.

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1985 Emmons push-pull, Session 500, Nashville400, 65 re-issue Fender Twin, Fender Tele

Jim Eaton · Post by **Jim Eaton** » 30 Dec 2001 5:22 pm

I use to run my 74' Session 400 w/JBL 15" & an extension cab With 2/12" Altec's. Big sound, but not worth the "weight" anymore!
JE:-)>

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 31 Dec 2001 11:34 am

I recently discovered that my Push Pull sounds good through any speaker.

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Steels and Guitars. Emmons PP, Nationals, Dan-O's, ES 340, Tube Amps only! "Blue Sparks From Hell" and "Kings in Disguise".

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 1 Jan 2002 3:05 am

Buck,
I realize you said that as a smart remark but there's probably a lot of truth to it. A properly adjusted push-pull Emmons would no doubt produce an acceptable tone through a tin horn, at least up close. On the other hand, my LeGrande II sounds wonderful thru a good 15" speaker but rather shrill and gutless thru a 12" speaker, upclose or otherwise.

Happy New Year!
Tim R.

Paul Warnik · Post by **Paul Warnik** » 4 Jan 2002 5:56 am

My Standel Studio 24 has put all my other amps into temporary retirement-with two 12"s it sounds fantastic with the Emmons P/P

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 5 Jan 2002 10:55 pm

I originally purchased a Session 400 to go with my '72 Emmons P/P with stock pickups but was NEVER quite satisfied with the JBL sound. It caught on fire one day and the JBL was replaced with a Black Widow that seemed to sound more to my liking. Then I picked up a Peavy LA-400, 250 watts with 12 inch speaker and the improvement was 100% instantaneous to my ear. Now, I run both amps thro' my ProFexII and the sound in my humble opinion, simply cannot be beat. Lot's of highs and lows and yet not overlapping each other. a great combination. The Fender twin reverb 2x12's Re-ISSUE just could not match what I have in the two above units.

Tim Rowley · Post by **Tim Rowley** » 6 Jan 2002 1:46 am

Ray,

YES! This is what I was fishing for. On Christmas day I installed a 910 Lawrence pickup in my push-pull Emmons. It gives basically the same great tone but BIGGER and with no hum. Now get this, I have had the recent opportunity to try the guitar (not on stage) thru a Peavey LA-400, a Fender Roc-Pro 1000, and my little Peavey Bandit 112, all of which are good quality solid-state open-back combo amps having a single 12" speaker. All exhibit the very sound characteristics which I was describing earlier, just by centering all the tone controls except boosting the bass to about 3/4 open. It appears that there really may be some symbiotic association between certain (many?) push-pull Emmons steels and 12" speakers! At my soonest opportunity I believe I'll take the risk and try my push-pull through a 12" speaker on stage. Thanks for relating this info Ray and a big thanks to all who have responded. Buck Dilly, thank you too sir, I reckon you're right.

Tim R.

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 6 Jan 2002 6:07 am

My Push pull sounds really great through my Twin with 2-12's. Original SC pup. I don't like the 2-12's as well as the 15" but that may just be a learned prejudice. I had to go through about 3 different Twins before I found one that I thought sounded good only to find out that its just my ears being stubborn. Tone is a fictional thing to me anymore. An amp tech finally straightened me out on one amp vs. another. Just my $.02.

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 8 Jan 2002 7:46 am

Tim,

I used to play a '70 Emmons p/p through a Peavey "Artist" with a single 12" Black Widow speaker. The "Artist" was a 120-watt RMS amp with a 6L6 vacuum tube driven power section. That was the best sounding guitar/amp combo I've ever played.

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Patrick Smith · Post by **Patrick Smith** » 8 Jan 2002 3:08 pm

Glenn, funny you should mention that, I inherited an old Peavey Artist and I slapped a JBL in that baby.....now I've got to admit, I'm not much on Peavey...I sometimes use an old Evans, but mostly my nuclear powered souped up tweed modded twin, but I gotta tell ya.....that little Artist sounds really good!....you have to pretty much kill the mid knob to get a sweet tone, but you're right, those really are pretty cool little steel amps...heavy as hell for the size but they sound great!

PMS
Janet Reno's Lil' Louisiana Love Doggie

Patrick Smith · Post by **Patrick Smith** » 8 Jan 2002 3:11 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot, I used to run 2 12" JBL's in the nuclear powered evil tweeded twin.....but carrying that thing resulted in my right arm being approx 3 inches longer than the left....so I built another twin cab for it and mounted a 15" BW in it....sounds fantastic and I swear took what seems to be a good 20 pounds off that thing.....twins with JBLs sound wonderful but those babies are brutal to carry down stairs and toss in a trunk!...LOL

PMS still