ProTools and Pedal Steel

billr · Post by **billr** » 27 Nov 2001 9:22 pm

Over the Thanksgiving holiday, I built myself a digital audio workstation with a new Power Mac G4, digi 001 interface, and ProTools. So far, I have tried recording out of my Emmons LeGrande II to a Goodrich 7A to a Goodrich Volume pedal and then to a Countryman Type-85 direct box. This arrangement has yielded satisfactory sound, but I was wondering if anyone has any tips for the audio signal chain to the ProTools interface. Also, can anyone recommend plug-ins which bring out the best of the guitar? I have been using the Real Audio reverb and the Renaissance 2 EQ with a stereo panning effect.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 27 Nov 2001 11:31 pm

You could try a tube preamp like an Avalon 737 and there's a plugin called "Amp Farm" and another one called "Mic Modeler" that will give you a bunch of different sounds.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 28 Nov 2001 9:13 am

That's no fair. You've got a computer, all i've got is this Compaq.

BC.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 28 Nov 2001 10:40 am

I have a new G4, I also have ProTools, but I think Digital Performer 3 is fantastic....not too bad a learning curve...the MOTU firewire 828 digital interface is the best thing happening right now--NO latency at all. I have alot of options to run my steel through....Line6 Pod Pro, 3-channel Demeter tube preamp, several speaker combinations, but I use mostly a Peavey VMP/2 stereo tube pre. Absolutely silent, a 6-stage gain section, and tone to the bone. From any of these(except speakers), I run into the excellent Demeter tube-directs. So far, I've found that any other hook-up I've tried, I've had to deal with that pesky latency problem....annoying to say the least. There are lots and lots of options out there, but I think the 828 will get you up and rolling the easiest. Good Luck!
By the way, for your set-up now, you might try a program/plugin called 'T-Racks', it can really warm up your sound. Amp Farm is also definitely worth having.[This message was edited by Jeff Peterson on 28 November 2001 at 10:44 AM.]

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 28 Nov 2001 10:44 am

Unfortunately Amp Farm and Mic Modeler will not work on a Digi 001 system. You need to have the expensive TDM system for that. You might want to try miking your amp, and recording that. To my ears going direct always sounds harsh. Another solution is to get a Line6 POD. Do you have the Renaissance compresser? That plug in will fatten up your tracks.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 28 Nov 2001 10:58 am

I've been using a sans amp rack mount PSA1 unit. This is an all analog unit which to my ears, is still the best amp modeling technology. My signal chain includes a TC Electronics M1 Reverb and/or a Lexicon Alex that was dirt cheap but sounds great. Having said all of this, I still note that the best sound I get for recording is two small cab evans miked up with two direct mikes and one distant mike.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas

Harry Hess · Post by **Harry Hess** » 3 Dec 2001 9:43 pm

A MesaBoogie stereo tube preamp works best. Just use the rhythm/clean channel. I have two. My favorite is an older model that takes two rack spaces and has spring reverb.

Regards,
HH

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 4 Dec 2001 1:37 pm

Lately I've been using Pro Tools Free (when they changed sw/hw architectures Digi put an older version up on their website for Free download) with an old Mac 7500 fortified with a G4 Processor Card. PT Free uses only the built in audio of the Mac, so the latency is annoying but sufferable. (kinda like a Sun records slapback)

I take the stereo out from my POD (with the v2.x upgrade) straight onto the "mic" input jack on the old Mac. I can monitor the whole shebang with headphones (seeing as most of the times I have to play with this stuff my boy is asleep in the next room)

the Ideal is miking a real amp IMO, but the POD works fine for this application;

I am still saving my pennies to build a PC DAW beefy enough to run SONAR (I am a longtime Cakewalk user/upgrader and upgraded myself right past my PC's ability to handle the software...)with WDM drivers

then I can use my old PC to be a softsynth station driven by SONAR

Ah the Bedroom Studio... "I sing the Body Electric"
[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 04 December 2001 at 01:38 PM.]

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 4 Dec 2001 7:27 pm

There’s so much new recording hardware and software out there now it’s hard to keep up. I decided to forgo my desktop system for a laptop. Now I can record anywhere, and my DAW software travels with me. I use a new Mac iBook with a MOTU 828 firewire interface. This gives me the ability to track 8 analog inputs at once, plus S/PDIF and ADAT lightpipe for a total of 18 simultaneous inputs (at least theoretically… I’ve only used the analog and S/PDIF for ten tracks, but that worked great). The 828 has nice sounding 24-bit converters, and even a pair of decent mic preamps.

It’s not quite accurate to say that there’s no latency with the 828. Any time you have to monitor audio that’s been sent through the computer there will always be some latency, although with a very fast processor it may be a small amount. The MOTU 828 just has a hardware feature built in that lets you work around it by monitoring any input or pair of inputs before it goes to the computer, and mix it with the ouput. It’s a good solution if you’re only recording two tracks at a time, and a few milliseconds of delay in the playback tracks are probably not much of a bother anyway. If, however, you need to create monitor mixes of all 8 live inputs for the musicians to hear, you’ll need a mixer for that, ‘cause latency is a problem if there is a delay in the headphones from the acoustic sound in the room.

Anyway, I love this setup. It’s great to be free from having to record in a 10 x 14 foot room with a desktop computer and it’s noisy fan and hard drives. The iBook makes no noise at all, has no crt to cause hum in pickups, and the whole rig is easy to tote around, even with a small mixer.

As for steel sound, I get a pretty good steel sound from my Stereo Steel preamp into a Behringer (yeah, I know…) tube mic preamp, then into an RNC compressor. I record dry, but I usually add reverb to the monitor signal.

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 5 Dec 2001 8:27 pm

Jerry,
what recording application are you using on the iBook/MOTU combination?

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 5 Dec 2001 9:55 pm

Both myself and fellow forumite (and scary monster player) Mike Smith are using the Paris Pro systems.

Hands down the most analog sounding and lowest latency DAW. Period. I did hours of listening tests before purchasing mine (and tearing up a substantial ProTools lease about halfway through).

The biggest difference is in the summing of all the channels in the mix buss. This is where all the other systems seem to choke.

YMMV.

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 5 Dec 2001 10:58 pm

Dave, My favorite recording application is Logic Audio, but the mid-level version I have doesn't support 24-bit files. I want to use that capability, so right now I'm using the Audiodesk application that came with the 828. Audiodesk is basically Digital Performer without the MIDI sequencing features. It's okay, but the plug-ins don't sound as good as the ones in Logic, especially the dynamics plug-ins (compressor and limiter). It does include MOTU's eVerb, which is a usable, if not spectacular reverb that doesn't carry too much processor overhead.

John, I had heard that Paris was no longer available due to the DSP chip having been discontinued by EMU. Have I heard wrong? You're certainly right about the digital summing busses. This is something I don't fully understand, and maybe you can explain it to me. My mixes in Audiodesk sometimes sound "narrow" or somehow not as full as when I mix tracks to an analog mixer. There's even a difference between digital mixes of the same tracks between two applications, with all other parameters the same, and I can't explain why. Logic sounds better to me, so I'll probably get version 5 (which includes 24-bit support) when it becomes available early next year.

David Spires · Post by **David Spires** » 6 Dec 2001 8:57 am

The mixing path is where, especially older, Pro Tools systems suffer. Even the newer ones are mixing at 24 bit fixed point. Almost all of the native recording apps handle mixing in 32 bit floating point in their lastest versions. SONAR does, and that is what I use in my studio.

For what it is worth, for PC users, SONAR (made by Cakewalk) has the easiest learning curve. I just can't imagine buying a Pro Tools system, when I can have the same functionality (for me and my one room studio) for a fraction of the cost.

As for making the steel sound better in Pro Tools -- if it doesn't sound right going in, change your micing technique, or amp settings. It's the same old game, crap in = crap out. Experiment...

Good luck,

David Spires

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 7 Dec 2001 1:03 pm

I had a ProTools (Pro001) system on a G4 for about 18 months and was pretty happy with the sound. The biggest improvement I made sonically with the steel was using an external mic preamp (in my case I used a Pendulum preamp which I also use live for my pedabros). The mic pres in that Protools are mediocre at best. I am a big believer in miking amps for the sound I like to hear.

I have since sold that system and went to a PC based Nuendo system, using a PreSonus Digimax as the 'front end'. I have noticed a tremendous improvement in my sound, probably due to the better mic pres and A/D converters in the PreSonus. I also bought my absolute favorite steel mike at the same time (a Royer 121 ribbon mike), so that also probably affected the tone on disk. I believe you could use the Prosonus with the 001, using the ADAT input. It's not cheap, but it has 8 excellent mike preamps with A/D converters, as well as line outs for each preamp, allowing you to do true zero latency recording. Although the combination of the Hammerfall card and Nuendo gives me latency that is so close to zero I don't even bother.

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www.tyacktunes.com

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 8 Dec 2001 4:04 pm

I'm running a G4 450/Motu 2408 originally with Audio Desk and now DP3.I sidestep all the latency crap by cutting to 4 DA-88s and only go to the computer for mixing.Also that way,I'm archived from the git-go and I have no tracking limitations as I often will cut 12 to 20 tracks during basic tracking sessions.I mixed the "Murph" CD in Audio Desk w/no outside plugins,BTW and I think it came out pretty well. I would always record Joaquin on 2 tracks - I set him up in the control room and plugged his Smith steel into my un-modded Session 400(also set up in the control room as his monitor)dialed in a sweet sound and took the XLR feed out of the back of the amp then to an Amek mic pre w/no additional EQ then to a DBX 163X compressor to grab the peaks and then straight to tape.On the second track,I took a feed right off the guitar through a direct box I built using a transformer out of an old API mic pre(also no EQ)then to a second 163X and on to tape.On most of the record I ended up using the Session 400 track. After mixing a few more records on that rig though,I'm starting to see that 24 tracks plus plugins just about tops out the 450 processor.Therefore I am considering sticking a TC Powercore card in there to handle most of my plugins. Anyone have an opinion on that thing? -MJ-

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 8 Dec 2001 10:08 pm

I think Bill should stick a mic in front of his amp.

Greg Derksen · Post by **Greg Derksen** » 10 Dec 2001 8:17 am

Here's something to weigh out, Killer mic
pre ( Neve, Avalon, ) into old Adat 16 bit,
Miked Amp, Or
Apogee 24 bit converter's with some sort of
Digital amp simulation,
I know which one I'd pick, Greg

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 10 Dec 2001 9:20 am

I'd go Neve to Adat. I have 10 Neve preamps, but even those aren't the end of the world. I still sound like I don't know what I'm doing.

Tom Ensink · Post by **Tom Ensink** » 12 Dec 2001 2:09 pm

Hi everybody,

I had tried the Line 6 pod and the J Station, but was not satisfied with the clean sounds required for steel.

For a session where I had to go direct into Roland VS something, I decided to try the Focusrite Tone Factory (a fairly priced preamp with input filters, equalisation, compression, overdrive etc.). It has a line input as well as a mic input with phantom power.

I am very satisfied with the "clean" sound. The overdrive button allows you to add just that bit of speaker simulation or bite required (I put it at about 25%).

There is no reverb or delay in the box but I just used my stomp boxes for that. Worked fine.

This is my best clean "no speaker" sound so far.

Tom

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John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 Dec 2001 5:03 pm

"I have 10 Neve preamps, but even those aren't the end of the world"

What are the models you have? I travel a long way to cut on 80 series Neve console, mainly cause I think they are kinda the end of the world for most things. Also, I never leave home without a pair of 1073's. Most guys would do bodily harm to have 10 Neves...

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 13 Dec 2001 9:10 pm

I have four 1073 preamp eq's and 6 1272 preamps modded to have variable gain. I didn't say I hate them, I just said I don't think they're the end of the world. They're not good on everything. and NO I'm not looking to unload them. The problem with 80 series is the amount of transformers the signal has to go through. Some people love that transformer sound, others don't. API is a great preamp, that has that warm Class A sound but with a punchier low end,(thats If anybody cares, which I suspect they don't)

John, Are you lookin to unload those two Neves? Just Kidding!

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 13 Dec 2001 10:58 pm

Glen,

I guess I'm just a transformer guy. Neves, A Ranges and Telefunkens wind me up, so to speak

. Throw in a few fire bottles, and I'm ready to go. Though I do love the transformerless GML stuff.

Seriously, I do travel around the country to track on 80 series consoles. Sounds like you have a nice rig, also. Drop an email and fill me in, and I'll do likewise.

Marc Muller · Post by **Marc Muller** » 14 Dec 2001 10:57 am

I have Focusrite producer pack (ISA 430) and it sounds great, especially the EQ. Just got UA's 2-610 which also sounds real good, very different sounding from the focusrite. I have to agree though, that API 500 series stuff absolutely rocks. Would trade it all in for a loaded lunchbox.

Greg Derksen · Post by **Greg Derksen** » 14 Dec 2001 4:09 pm

Glenn I care, Are you saying the API's
are Darker than Neve, Greg[This message was edited by Greg Derksen on 14 December 2001 at 04:18 PM.]