Keith Hilton- say Wah?

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 8 Mar 2001 8:03 am

Howdy Keith-
I have heard nothing but good things about your volume pedal, & plan to get one. Have you ever made a Wah-volume, like a Morley except with your infared system in both sections? I'd be interested in that. Thanks!

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T. Sage Harmos
Sage Musical Instruments

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 8 Mar 2001 9:01 am

I agree. There is no good volume/wah pedal for steel. The guitar wah pedals are not designed for the kind of long-term continuous use that a steel volume pedal gets. I might even be willing to use a wall wart if there were a good volume pedal that had an excellent wah effect built in.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 8 Mar 2001 9:14 am

I had a Goodrich photo cell volume/wah pedal back in the 70's and it worked great. In fact I don't recall selling it and it may still be buried in my garage somewhere.

It has a pot with an oversized knob on the left side to adjust the volume when the wah is on. It's a great idea, but as I recall, the Goodrich pedal colored my tone somewhat which is why I stopped using it.

Matt Farrow · Post by **Matt Farrow** » 8 Mar 2001 9:17 am

Well, I use a reissue Vox wah for steel, it works great but I had to adjust the wah pot for the right taper with the steel. You pull the little rack gear away from the pinion on the pot and roll the pot to where you get the right amount of "wah" on your pedal sweep.

-- I see Jim beat me to the punch... --

One thing you might want in a steel guitar wah/vol is a preset volume point for the volume pedal when you're using the wah. On my Morley PWV Power Wah Volume when you switch to wah mode you automatically go up to full volume on the volume pedal. This works great for guitar, but a lot of steelers like to play on the backside of the volume pedal. Maybe a little preset knob on the side, so you get your sound like you want, then switch on the wah and use the preset to balance out the volume levels?

Matt Farrow

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Matt Farrow
Marlen 9-string 6+2
Kustom K150

http://surf.to/pharaohamps

[This message was edited by Pharaoh on 08 March 2001 at 09:20 AM.]

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 8 Mar 2001 4:18 pm

There are many great effects on the market. 100% of these effects are designed for the standard 6 string guitar market. A lot of the stuff designed for guitars does not perform that great on steel guitar. One big problem with many guitar effects is tone coloring, even in the bypass mode. Clean, clear sound quality does not seem to be a concern to many of the guys designing standard 6 string guitar electronics. I suppose they assume the market is all young kids, and all the young kids are going to add Fuzz, Chorus, Flange, and a bunch of other sound effect stuff. Thats why beautiful clean sound doesn't matter to the guys designing guitar electronics for the mass young adult market. I guess they are right, listen to MTV sometime and see if you hear any clean, clear straight standard 6 sring guitar. Don't get me wrong, I think there is a place for nasty cutting rock guitar sounds, but I also know there is a place for clean and clear sound. There are many effects I am certain I could make "better", by designing them just "for" pedal steel guitar. A Wah and a Evelope Filter is two of them. A Wah being a pedal operated Wah, and a Evelope Filter being a string generated automatic Wah. I am looking into some things that could be added on to the existing design of my infrared pedal. These would be add on modules, and could be installed in pedals already in use by customers.
Two of the most usable effects would be Wah and Fuzz. One good thing about these effects is you can do them in analog and get good results. Texas Instruments bought out Burr Brown and this has caused me some problems getting some semi-conductors I like. I've spent all this week on the internet ,and on the telephone, with different semi-conductor makers.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 8 Mar 2001 4:44 pm

Keith...one of the things I've always persued for steel is the tube sounding crunch. Being able to play 2 notes crunchy. All distortion and fuzz units I've tried end up too broken up when playing 2 notes together. In other words it always goes beyond crunch even with the mildest settings. If I put a fet preamp stomp box in front of my compressor and overdrive it a little, I can get the control I need for that sound. I think this could be incorporated into one unit however?
Dennis

Kevin Walker · Post by **Kevin Walker** » 8 Mar 2001 4:56 pm

I agree with Dennis about the distortion effect. I've used a whole lot of different distortion gizmos and finally settled on a Proco Rat. It definitely produces a cutting distorted sound. It also thins the tone out to the point where it's impossible to round it out. You're also pretty limited to single note playing and possibly two note thirds. Keith, if you could come up with a good tone producing distortion, I don't think that you would have any problem selling the effect.
,Kevin

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 8 Mar 2001 9:30 pm

Dennis, I assume your are trying to play more than one note when the signal is over-driven. I like the concept of playing more than one note when a signal is over driven. This has always been a problem. The more harmony notes you play, the more it becomes "OUTTER SPACE" ,or not understandable.
Dennis, tell me more about how you have over- come part of this problem? You said you went to: Fret Preamp, to compressor, and then overdrove it. Can you explain this a little more for a slow learner like me? Here is some food for thought. I played for a living for a number of years. I wasn't around a lot of rock guitar players, but I was around some. Here is a interesting thing I learned from the rock guitar players, tried, and liked. I played with a rock guitar player who had a very small amp in addition to two big Marshall amps. He would set the small amp very loud where it would distort the speaker. I'm talking a small amp, with a 6 inch speaker, and maybe 10 watts. The marshall amps were run clean, unless he wanted some kind of effect through an additional effect unit. I tried this on steel and it worked great. I bought a small amp, and put in parallel with the signal going to my other two amps. I had a in and out switch that could turn the small amp on or off. I had the small amp set where the volume would overdrive it. When the small amp came on, there was distortion, and it was understandable. I don't like distortion that is not understandable. If you can't understand the distortion, you have outter space sounds, and I don't understand that. In this way I got a clean clear signal and a distored signal from the small amp when I wanted it. It was very, very, very effective![This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 08 March 2001 at 09:32 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 9 Mar 2001 9:17 am

I don't see any need for effects in the pedal if they don't have a parameter that the pedal is controlling. Envelope followers, distortion, etc. work just as well as stomp boxes.

If you're going to add effects to a volume pedal, make the pedal action control the effect. Wah is a great example of this. Rotary is another - the pedal could control the speed of the effect.

I agree that there should be a volume preset on the side for when you switch modes. Also, the effect on/off switch should be on the heel end of the pedal travel, so that volume is off when you hit it.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 9 Mar 2001 9:35 am

That was one "problem" with the Goodrich pedal, the switch was on the toe end (full volume!) It did shut off the volume just before the switch activated, but I had to mute the strings while switching, and often found myself shutting off the volume while trying to bottom out the pedal.

Matt Farrow · Post by **Matt Farrow** » 9 Mar 2001 10:49 am

b0b brings up some good points - I actually prefer the Morley arrangement where the stomp switch for the wah is at the heel end, but off to the side. I have my old PWV Power Wah Volume as well as my PWF Power Wah Fuzz and they're both like that. Not very good for standard guitar but great for steel because you can slide your heel over to the right or left and kick the switch.

I actually like a separate pedal for wah, and I keep it to the right of my vol pedal. I have my fuzz first, then into my wah, volume, and delay. Sometimes I use an old Electro-Harmonix Small Stone phaser which is inside an old wah pedal case so I can vary the rate with my foot. Gets that Sneaky Pete thing on acid rock tunes.

b0b is also right that there's no point of putting a pedal in a treadle type case unless the treadle controls some parameter of the effect. Otherwise the extra effect is added baggage - if you need the treadle part, or the treadle part is extra baggage of you need the extra effect!

And the old Fender vol/tone pedals, with the tone control on the horizontal axis - were they string driven? I might be interested in a vol / wah pedal if you could use them independently like that...

Matt

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Matt Farrow
Marlen 9-string 6+2
Kustom K150

http://surf.to/pharaohamps

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 9 Mar 2001 11:40 am

I use the wah in my Boss VF-1, along with a very small expression pedal, that way I can fit both under the guitar (it gets crowded under there with 9 pedals).

In terms of distortion pedals, most of them are not designed for steel (they distort way too much even at minimal settings).

A very good one is the FullTone FullDrive2. One key is to put it after your volume pedal, that way you get more 'amp like' dynamics.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 9 Mar 2001 4:05 pm

You guys are something else!
The fanciest foot controller I've seen was made by a local microtonal composer/performer/builder who made 2 pedals with 3 axies- standard up and back, axial twist, and side to side all at the same time!
What I really want is a 2 axis pedal that controls both in the usual up and down and also sweeps side to side (with the leg bone representing the axis of rotation). I'd like the functions to be switchable so that I can trade having one or the other as the up-down one.

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T. Sage Harmos
Sage Musical Instruments

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 9 Mar 2001 6:27 pm

Keith....I have a DOD fet preamp stomp box and a MXR compressor. By accident years ago...I went from steel to volume pedal to DOD to MXR to amp. With both units on and the proper settings...I can get a very nice mild "crunch". I can also play 2 or 3 notes and get that nice rock rythmn backup guitar sound. I don't know why the combination works as it does? I assume the DOD is pushing voltage into the compressor as the compressor is trying to cut the signal and I end up with a nice controllable crunch? Not sure? But it works. All other production model distortion and fuzz devices I've tried end up with a garbled sound with 2 notes played...even on the lowest settings. I can't believe a unit can't be made that can be controlled down to a very mild sound? So that 2 or more notes can be played and sound like a slightly overdriven tube amp?
I have a whole box of stomp boxes that I have used over the years depending on the band I work with and the material being played. I seldom use them with the bands I've been working with. Mainly because they muddy my clean tone when in line.
Dennis

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 9 Mar 2001 6:44 pm

I think Bob is keeping focus on the right road to take. One important thing would be the ability to control volume levels on both effect and bypass. I have had several people try and get me to build pedals where the top swiveled from side to side. This would be like the old Bigsby and Edwards pedals that had tops that swiveled. Seems like it would be a real "trick" to keep up and down volume constant, while quickly moving a swivel plate on the top of a pedal from side to side. I'll have to think on that!
Bob, let me ask you something. If there were a swivel plate on top of your pedal that controlled a "Wah", how difficult would it be to control up and down volume? Bob,where would you put the effect, bypass switch? Sage, I don't know where you are getting the 3rd axis movment? I can only imagine two axis?[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 09 March 2001 at 06:48 PM.][This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 09 March 2001 at 06:52 PM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 9 Mar 2001 10:36 pm

pitch
roll
yaw

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 10 Mar 2001 5:11 am

I wouldn't think there would be much of a market for a volume/wah pedal for steelers. There would be some but in reality how much use would something like that get.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 10 Mar 2001 5:52 am

Keith,
The notion you mentioned about the fella with a small amp and 2 large Marshalls is
well taken.
A very nice understandable distortion can
be had using the simple and relatively inexpensive Pignose. I've been using it for years, and although it may not go as 'far'
in distortion depth as some may desire, I
find that it's enough for what I do.
Put it right in parallel line, and probably
with an A/B switch. The regular clean steel could go to channel 1, and the Pignose to
channel 2.
JMHO
chipsahoy
PS - Think Pignoses can be had for around $79. Plus, you can take the PN to the beach,
without electricity, and rock out all night long.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 10 Mar 2001 8:45 pm

Jack, until I heard the Campbell brothers play I couldn't imagine it. Now that I've heard them play, there are some things that can't be expressed without it. They use it in an extremely vocal way, and Darick Campbell doesn't even use a pedal, just spins the knob on top of his Fender as he goes. Just beautiful.
Keith, You're right, a quick lateral movement would be tough, that's why I want the volume on the sweeping motion and the wah on the up and down. I tend to keep my volume up most of the time and don't use it very often for "gutting", or as dynamicaly as most steel players do. But if it's switchable, I could use it that way depending on the song. As for 3 degrees of freedom imagine an old compass leveling device- the classic nested rings with perpendicular axies. Inside of those is the compass needle itself with the z axis. That's 3 - pitch, roll, yaw sure you betcha.

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T. Sage Harmos
Musical Instruments

[This message was edited by Sage on 10 March 2001 at 08:57 PM.][This message was edited by Sage on 10 March 2001 at 09:00 PM.]

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 11 Mar 2001 12:08 am

Sage, did you ever try a "Cry Baby" brand Wah pedal? That brand was pretty popular with guitar players a few years back. That brand is still on the market.

Sage · Post by **Sage** » 11 Mar 2001 7:49 am

No- I'll check it out. Thanks. I was kind of hoping for the same kind of tonal magic in a Wah that you have achieved in a volume pedal.

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 Mar 2001 8:52 am

I believe Rusty Young used a Cry Baby with a Leslie cabinet or two for his fabulous B3 sounds. That's the "holy grail" sound I've been looking for.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 Mar 2001 12:17 pm

Many of the Sacred Steel players use the Morly wah-volume pedal. I think this thing sounds great!

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www.tyacktunes.com

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 11 Mar 2001 8:28 pm

Is that Morley pedal as big and tall as they were back in the 70's? If so, I don't see how you'd get your knee under the guitar.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 11 Mar 2001 8:40 pm

There's a more compact version these days. I am not crazy about the feel of it in terms of a volume pedal, but it is a great sounding wah.

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www.tyacktunes.com