Minor Keys

Martin Schmidt · Post by **Martin Schmidt** » 3 May 2004 12:07 am

Can you name any steel sogs in minor keys? I find it more difficult to play in minor keys than major keys or blues (same as on slide guitar). What do you think?

Richard Brandt · Post by **Richard Brandt** » 3 May 2004 3:13 am

St. Louie Blues.Green sleeves

Mike McBride · Post by **Mike McBride** » 3 May 2004 8:22 am

Danny Boy?

Craig Prior · Post by **Craig Prior** » 3 May 2004 9:47 am

Bob Brozman's Devil's Slide is a challenging little number in Dm. Standard Dobro tuning or low G tuning will work.

La Rosita switches into minor mode. Bm tuning.

Both are challenging tunes and great learning experiences.

Bill Bosler · Post by **Bill Bosler** » 3 May 2004 10:37 am

Martin - Check out this web site. It's listed in another topic, but applies here just as well.
http://www.homestead.com/dennysguitars/lessonsindex1.html

Go to lesson 7.

[This message was edited by Bill Bosler on 03 May 2004 at 11:39 AM.]

Harry Dietrich · Post by **Harry Dietrich** » 3 May 2004 11:53 am

Kawlija starts in a minor. I play it in Gm.

Happy picking.....Harry

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 3 May 2004 12:00 pm

Tiger Shark..
Baz

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

Ed Altrichter · Post by **Ed Altrichter** » 3 May 2004 6:37 pm

This is fun to play on the Dobro :

"Ghost Riders in the Sky"

Ed Altrichter · Post by **Ed Altrichter** » 3 May 2004 6:56 pm

Holy buckets ! I went to that "Dennysguitars" web site and got lost in a jungle of verbiage !

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 3 May 2004 7:08 pm

Summertime- Santo and Johnny

Gary Anwyl · Post by **Gary Anwyl** » 3 May 2004 8:22 pm

I play Minor Swing in the High G tuning.

I found Stacy Phillips' book Complete Dobro Player helpful. He has a chapter on playing in minor keys and covers some of the theory (for example, some minor key songs are based on a dorian scale while others such as Minor Swing, are based on a harmonic minor scale).

I also found Cindy Cashdollar's video Dobro Variations. In it she covers the tune Minor Swing. Even though I'd been playing the tune for a while, I picked up a couple of new ideas from the video.
[This message was edited by Gary Anwyl on 03 May 2004 at 09:35 PM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 3 May 2004 9:32 pm

I think of the Dobro as an "E" tuned instrument when playing minor keys. That is, the fifth fret is Amin., instead of C major.(Of course, This is a "G" tuned guitar) It works for improvising, at least for me.

Ron Bednar · Post by **Ron Bednar** » 3 May 2004 9:34 pm

Hoyt Axton's "Angelina" Bm, great on dobro in open D tuning.

Hey, Ed you wouldn't happen to have a tab for "Ghost Riders in the Sky" laying around would you?[This message was edited by Ron Bednar on 03 May 2004 at 10:35 PM.]

Ed Altrichter · Post by **Ed Altrichter** » 4 May 2004 5:36 am

Ron :
I don't get into tab because I don't have the patience to figure it out. If I can't get it on my own, I don't play it ! But I'll try to describe what I do in words.
"Ghost Riders in the Sky"... GBDGBD Dobro tuning.
I start on the 5th fret straight across and play (An old cowpoke went riding out one)then go to open G and play (dark and windy day.) 5th fret: (Upon a ridge he rested as) Go to 12th fret (he rode along his way. And all at) slant to 1st string on 14th fret: (once a might-) 12th fret: (-y herd of red-eyed) 7th fret, 1st string (cows) 5th fret, 1st & 2nd strings (he saw) Go to open G : (a-charging through the) Go to 5th fret: (pick 1st string 5 times... I forgot the words!) Same fret, hit 2nd string twice (the cloud-)open G : (-y) Go to 5th fret, 2nd string: (draw.) Go to 9th fret

Yippee ki -)slide up to 12th fret, 1st string: (yo)14th fret, 1st string (yippee ki)12th fret, 2nd string: (yay-ee) 5th fret: (Ghost Riders in) open G: (the) 5th fret: (sky!)
This is just one variation. I like to do a lot of thumb-strumming on this to set up a solo rythm while I play the melody with my fingers. Let me know if this helps, or if it just seems stupid.
Ed

Dylan Schorer · Post by **Dylan Schorer** » 4 May 2004 6:30 am

The Jerry Douglas tune "Hymn Of Ordinary Motion" is a great minor-key dobro piece. It's in GBDGBD based around a B minor chord at the fourth fret, with the open high D string for the minor third.

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 4 May 2004 8:49 am

Holy buckets of motivation and application Batman. Here's a very short and simple basic review of Nashville / Berkelee numbers-based music theory and terminology that makes all this quite simple for anyone that might desire it.

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If we can locate a Maj7 scale on a steel and play do re mi fa sol la ti do .... or play mary had a little lamb which is also in the Maj7 scale; Then it is no more difficult to play a minor song in a minor key as long as we know where that minor scale is found on the steel neck; And where most popular scales (aka modes) and their chords and harmonies are found on a steel is quite simple:

FOR A 6TH (or 13th) TUNED STEEL:

To play in a minor of any key, first find the key's tonic 6th chord (C6 for the key of C), then play in a 2 fret box that's formed 3 and 5 frets up from the tonic 6th chord. In other words if you want to play in Cmin, move the bar up to the 3rd fret to get Cmin7 chord and the remaining notes of Cmin7 scale will be located at the 5th fret. The entire Cmin7 scale and it's harmonies, lined up neatly in place on each of those frets, is found at the Eb6 and F6 fret.

Likewise Fmin7 chord is found at the Ab6 fret and the remaining notes of Fmin7 will be at the Bb6 fret; Ab6 and Bb6 frets form the box for Fmin7 scale.

If a song remains modal throughout the song (many if not most do), you don't really need to play anywhere else than the song's 2 frets mode box ...although more advanced musicianship will move you in and out of that box for a number of reasons too long to go into here.

On the other hand, if the song's structure is more by key changes such as the common Imin, IVmin, Vmin (or V7) ...(all of which are more commonly thought of as a I, IV, V chord change song in Imin), then you can move / modulate that 3rd and 5th fret box from Cmin to Fmin which is found 3 and 5 frets above F6 ....etc etc.

FUN songs such as those mentioned in the previous postings here are best to play around with first in minor scales and chords, for enjoyment and motivational purposes; But to learn minor key playing, more technical songs should also be played along with and studied (as well as drawing discoveries and ideas out on paper in fretboard form).

One of the better songs I can think of off hand as an easier serious study of minor song / scale structure and mental and playing exercise on Steel, is "No Ame Bolyo" on Jerry Byrd's "By Request" CD. That song can be approached by either a I, IV, V armature OR as a song that is changing modes between min7 (Dorian minor) and min7b6 (Pure Minor aka Aolean minor) with a Vmaj passage (aka turn-around) that resolves back into the minors again; ...and either approach makes perfect sense with each other.

Another great CD to just have fun playing along with and finding mode boxes in both major and minor keys ....and to hear Gregg Allman's mastery of simple but extraordinarily effective mode and scale/chord substitution thinking and voicings; ...is his "Laid Back" album / CD; Where almost every song can be played along with on Steel in one single mode fret box even though it sounds like Gregg's playing all sorts of different chords all over the place, when in fact all he is doing is using chord substitution for voicings that remain right in a single mode but with occasional lines that might go out of mode for a moment in accentuation prior to resolving right back to the same mode. By gaining some playing-along familiarity with the songs on that album, ....hearing those songs' modes and some of their phrases that depart from mode in passage, becomes quit easy and rewarding for Steel navigation and finding the REMARKABLE SIMPLICITY of modes, their boxes on Steel and substitutions therein. It's not magic, and not difficult for a reasonably motivated Picker; It's just numbers that make CMaj7 = G6 + F6; Cmin7 = Eb6 + F6; C7 = C6 + Bb6; Cmin7b6 = Ab6 + Bb6; Cdim = Gb6 + Ab6; etc etc etc. ....because each of those "substitutions" share the same identical notes; And there are 7 other substitutions for each one that allow a Player to play any of the other popular scales (aka modes) in any key by simply transposing (moving) a simple mental template up and down the neck.

Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 04 May 2004 at 10:44 AM.]

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 4 May 2004 12:10 pm

I would wish Maurice Anderson would see this topic. We long discussed the "minor key issue". He has a very simple way to look at it and that's how he teaches it to his students, or to me at least.
Mainly I understand his argument in such a way that there no such thing as a minor key.
Why do minor keyes look strange to us? because the typical progression intervalls are all messed up. As we learn to play, based on music in Mayor keyes, we get used to I, -II or II7th, -III, IV. V(7th), -VI or VI7th chords and their possitions on our fretboard, a concept that can easily get to be chalanged with the introduction of a song in a minor key. Still a "minor" song sounds right to our ears, just with that jewish tension, as Jeff Newman called it. Why does that messed up progression sound natural to us? Because, and this is how I believe Maurice builds his system up, a traditional progression (in other words, a familiar line up of intervals between the chords) is usually hidden into it. And that progression can be made visible when one choses to call a different chord, a Mayor chord of the progression the key, and then re-numbers the whole progression starting with that chord being I (tonic). You just have to find that chord.

In some lucky cases, it's the relative Mayor to the minor key chord, but sometimes one has to look further. In some "hard core cases" that chord may also never be played (a fictous helping chord has to be written).
I have seen this work for most songs and it is a great approach to lay out a song into a more familiar, more playable way. However, I don't 100% agree with my mentor in that the newly designated key really is the key, and here is why: I have a hard time hearing the root chord on more complex songs... I get undecided... but I allways hear the V7th... even if it's not played(!!) (just like Maurice can hear a I chord that isn't being played during the entire song!). Anyway, If I take, let's say, Summer Time Blues in the original minor key, I do hear (locate) the V7th. If I re-organize the song so that the key becomes Mayor and all the chords line up nicely... the chord I still do hear as the V7th has obviously shifted position but still sounds as the V7th (to me).
It becomes even more so apparent with songs built up on the -I, -IV, V - Minor Blues theme like Minor Swing, or worse The Thrill Is Gone which goes -I, -IV, -V. In all those cases I do hear the V (and yes, even the -V) as the turning point in the whole piece.

I hope any of this makes some sense to somebody... it does to me, at times.

... J-D.
[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 04 May 2004 at 01:38 PM.]

Gerald Ross · Post by **Gerald Ross** » 4 May 2004 12:18 pm

Jewish Tension??? Please explain. Klezmer steel?

Irving Berlin, the famous Jewish composer of 'White Christmas' and 'Easter Parade' was once quoted as saying "Americans are suckers for minor chords, they love em"

Listen to Berlin's 'Blue Skies'... minor chord extravaganza.

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Gerald Ross
'Northwest Ann Arbor, Michigan's King Of The Hawaiian Steel Guitar'

Gerald's Fingerstyle Guitar Website
[This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 04 May 2004 at 01:59 PM.][This message was edited by Gerald Ross on 04 May 2004 at 02:00 PM.]

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 4 May 2004 12:49 pm

Gerald, I can't explain and sadly Jeff is not around anymore. We attended one of his two-day seminars in Central Florida, about 6 or 7 years back... Blue, was flying high... as you may only know, it has minor chords. So Jeff concentrated for a couple of hours on the that song in a attempt to sell us to the idea that minor chords could indeed be played on the steel (imagine!!). To teach some of the not so convinced atendees how to identifiy such a chord otherwise than just as not playable (on steel), he directed us to listen for that "Jewish" sound or tension. I found that funny as well as many other things Jeff told us.

BTW, Irving Berlin was right, but I won't explain either!

... J-D.
[This message was edited by J D Sauser on 04 May 2004 at 01:50 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 4 May 2004 3:41 pm

"Jewish Tension"

Oy vey! I have to find some minor chords on this facockda thing before Shabbos!

Achhh, never mind. Let's get some cake....

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 6 May 2004 5:20 am

Bumpowitz

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 6 May 2004 6:16 am

Maurice's thinking does make sense in a lot of cases. In terms of scales, it helps to remember that the relative minor key uses the same scale as the related major. So A minor uses the same scale as C major, you just start and end on A instead of C. A typical minor chord set is Im, IVm, V7. In the related major key that would be VIm, IIm, III7. Last night I was fiddling around on the piano with the classic film noir chords. I was playing Am7, then Fm7 (or F7, couldn't decide which I liked better). Thinking in the key of Am that seems like a pretty strange progression (Im7, VIm7). But thinking in the key of C major, thats just the relative minor and the IVm7 chord, which somehow seems simpler.

Dwayne Martineau · Post by **Dwayne Martineau** » 6 May 2004 9:49 am

Yep! If you can relate it to a scale you know, do it! Most of you already know more about music theory than you realize.

A fun and easy trick to remember when working out chord progressions, trying to steer out of the I-IV-V, is just to sub in the relative minor or major and see how it sounds.

An interesting tension can be created by throwing in a minor IV chord here and there. It sounds surprisingly jazzy and augmented over a full band playing a major IV chord.

If it helps, you can always take your familiar major tuning and just tune one string to give you the relative MINOR root note.

(i.e.) Take a [GBDGBD] "G Major" tuning and give yourself the relative minor, an E. Like: EBDGBD.

Hmm. And then you've just discoverd a 6th tuning. How funny.

P.S. Someday, Denny, I'm going to have enough time to print out your website, all of your posts, collate them into a binder, and then me and my steel are going to take a week off to read through them.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 7 May 2004 5:36 am

I've always wondered if the 6th tuning wasn't discovered by accident while exploring minor possibilities. Would "Hava Nagila" (sp?) be an example of "Jewish tension"(funny Howard!)? Sidenote: We once played it at a Jewish wedding for a good 25 minutes or so while everyone in the wedding party took chair rides around the hall. The ROCKINGEST wedding I've ever attended!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 7 May 2004 6:00 am

"Ghost Riders" and "Kawliga" are the ones I've played the most. Also, Hank Williams' "Ramblin' Man".

Then there's "The Anniversary Waltz". Very pretty tune that shifts modes for a few measures.

On the rock side, Santana's "Evil Ways" and CCR's "Suzy Q" or "Run Through The Jungle" come to mind.

"Summertime" and "Autumn Leaves" are good minor key standards with sophisticated chord progressions.

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