Ahh.....The home studio bottomless pit

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 19 Nov 2000 6:08 am

I recently surrendered all sanity and converted a 17X27 room into a home studio.
I've had a lot of the recording stuff for several years sharing a bedroom. After our daughter moved out, I decided to spend her inheiritance, much to her great chagrin.
I'm set up with a Mackie 8 buss 24X8 and Adats. I've got Lexicon, Alesis, and Zoom reverbs. I'm using Digitech and Roland delays. I've got several different compressors and noise gates. I'm using Akg, Shure, Audio Techniqa, and Sennheiser mikes.
For mix down and mastering I recently purchased the Alesis Masterlink (awesome!)hard disk/CD recorder.
My biggest problem with my own recordings is the drumming. I am not very good but have a nice set of yamaha drums set up. I also have the Roland R8 MKII drum machine which has awesome sounds but requires a PHD in programming to use.
I would be interested in hearing about other folks home setups. What do you guys do about drums? I suspect that there is some program which will let me run my Roland from the computer...I just don't know of any and sadly am woefully illiterate when it comes to midi type stuff. Does anyone know of an easy fix? Perhaps midi drumming for idiots?

Wish list......I really would like some type of automation program for my 8 buss.
I also am thinking about upgrading to the new 24 channel hard disk recorders on the market.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 19 Nov 2000 6:57 am

I used an Alesis SR-16 drum machine on my recent CD. It worked well for everything except Sleepwalk. It just didn't have the right track for that and I wound up using Band in a Box for that track.

I know the Alesis is not for everyone, but with a very limited budget it worked for me. The only thing, the Alesis does not have a factory program for is a 3/4 waltz and I can't understand why they didn't include one. I had to do a user program for that.

I also did a "hardcore country" vocal album with the Alesis and it worked great for that.

Greg Derksen · Post by **Greg Derksen** » 19 Nov 2000 2:32 pm

Hey Steve, I have a 12 by 24 room set up for
project Studio, One thing I found is the time
it takes to program a great drum track, a
good drummer can do in alot less time plus you get the bonus of real cymbals and all the
ghost notes a good drummer lays down.
Your room would work fine , with a great sounding kit and good drummer, so many
very talented people would probably be glad
to come in for experience alone. Much more
musical than a drum machine and you get a
chance to learn more about getting good drum
sounds. Sounds like you have a great set-up,
get a real Drummer and have fun. Greg

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 19 Nov 2000 7:45 pm

I have chosen to go the hard disc route, with computer and cakewalk and midi where it fits, as well as a Roland sound module.

I have found recording a live classical guitar to be a real challange, with mike placement and all things related. I have found that for me, inputing the notes thru midi and using the sound module voice for the guitar, it sounds better and more realistic than doing it live with a real guitar. Sad in a way, but it works in a limited relm.

I would think a live drummer would be best, but the challanges of miking and recording it are beyond my abilities and budget. So...punch in a midi drum track. What it lacks in character is more than made up in real sounds and ease of use.

Is it cheating? Well, yes. Does it work well? For the home studio, it works very well. In midi, we can be a whole band, one track at a time.

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 19 Nov 2000 7:47 pm

Greg: You're fortunate to know some great drummers. If you're not, or even if you do, I still think it would be fun and challenging to program drum/purcussion tracks assuming the technology is available.

That's a big "if." My limited recording experience has been that it takes lots of time to set up and mike a drum kit. I haven't had much luck communicating exactly what I want drummers to play tho' I can hear it in my head. And, I'm picky as hell about what they do.

I think Steve is onto something regarding how important it is to get the drum/purcussion track right. To me, it's a make or break element in the recording process.

I'd be very interested to hear from anyone who uses software to create purcussion tracks and what type of input device is used to tap out the parts. I suppose if you get up to speed on a recording application like Cakewalk with a graphic sound chart, you could point and click the exact parts. I may be too old now to ever figure out how to do that! (Sorta like playing the PSG.)

John

Fred Murphy · Post by **Fred Murphy** » 19 Nov 2000 8:34 pm

I had the same problem and what I use, I think works pretty well. I program my songs up in BIAB and let that drive my drums. You can import your programmed song into Cakewalk and edit the drums or any other instrument in any way you want. Since I don't have a special sound card in my computer, I use a Roland JV1010 sound module, which has great sounding drums and lots of other good sounding tones you may want to use. I have this synced to my computer, my Roland 1680, and my Korg synth. You can use the BIAB files and record each instrument to separate tracks on your recorder and sync them all together. You can then have a full band to play your own instruments to and then just erase the tracks you don't want. I play all my own instruments except the drums. I find it easier to play each instrument separately if I feel like I am playing in a band, instead of trying to imagine the other instruments playing while I dub to the drum track with only the drums playing. I use a Yamaha UX256 USB for the sync. I also have my computer sound going into a Samson 550 Studio amp with Alesis Monitor Two speakers. This gives a pretty good sound for my computer without using ear phones. The BIAB files gives you some pretty good drum patterns and fills which make it pretty easy to edit or change them in Cakewalk, and the Roland JV1010 will give you the tone you want. You can also program up any BIAB drum patterns and fills and edit theirs to make your own styles if you like. I have never found a true Ray Price sounding pattern and so I made my own and used their rolls and fills. I think you might also need a good universal waltz pattern. I have just about all of BIAB styles and I found I still needed these two styles for the true sound I wanted. In Cakewalk, you simply mute all the instruments you don't want recorded in the track and record the track you want and keep repeating this process, on separate tracks.

Jerry Gleason · Post by **Jerry Gleason** » 19 Nov 2000 10:05 pm

I started out tracking my drums with an Alesis SR-16, but after a while I was dissatisfied with it, partly because it lacked sounds I needed, such as brushes. I decided that I could do just about as well playing the drums myself. I certainly don't consider myself a drummer, but I've worked out a method of tracking the drums one at a time, which doesn't require that much coordination, you just have to know what you want it to sound like. I do a ride cymbal, then a high hat, snare, and then add whatever I need after that. It's time consuming, for sure, but I have fun doing it, and that's the only reason for me to record in the first place. The main advantage to this method (aside from not needing serious drumming chops) is that you can use exactly the right mic in the right place, with the right eq and effect for each track, and no worries about bleeding into other tracks. Even if I had the chops to play the whole kit well, I might still do it this way for the aformentioned reasons.

I do think, though, that if you're striving for a commercial standard, there's no substitute for a real (good) drummer.
----

The Jazz Lounge

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 20 Nov 2000 4:23 am

There is a rock drummer that lives across the street from me. He used to live in New York City and knows a lot of professional drummers. He says that a lot of the big name commercial recordings are using synthesized drums.

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 20 Nov 2000 8:44 am

Steve, I follow the same path that Fred Murphey goes. I use BIAB to drive an older Roland U-20 synth and take four outs from the U-20 directly into my VS-1680 hard disk recorder. I've already tweaked my drum patterns in their own styles that gives me the styles I want. By the time it leaves the computer the rhythm section is already done. Then I add the real instruments to the mix; steel, acoustic guitar, etc. I think that the best mixture is a proper proportion of machine vs human. Too much machine, too mechanical. Too much human, bad drumming!!

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 20 Nov 2000 8:47 am

Could someone please tell me how to use a sound module with BIAB? An email will be fine. My son is getting into recording his 6 string, I have an extra Roland U-220 that I'm not using, and Christmans is fast approaching.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@home.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-12 8&5=-

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 20 Nov 2000 10:57 am

I used BIAB for the accompanyment track on Sleepwalk, on my CD. All I did, after the song was programmed (by Don Sulesky for me) was to remove the lead instrument and then just record the BIAB song (minus lead) on to one track on my 4 track Tascan 424 MKII. I then went back and put steel on another track and added bass to a third track as the BIAB bass wasn't up in the mix.

Go to this page on my web and there is an MP3 sample of Sleepwalk with the BIAB track. http://home.earthlink.net/~jestoner/cd.htm

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 20 Nov 2000 2:16 pm

Steve, my advise is tp quit now before you pull your hair out and like me,unless you jave had implants you don't have that much left so hang on to it. The voice of bad experience talking. Keep your thumb pick hot!

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Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 20 Nov 2000 3:11 pm

Something I keep meaning to try whenever I get back around to messing with my home studio--

Drum Related Gear: 
Old Roland 707 drum machine
Old 1 Meg sampler
Old Yamaha 4 pad touch sensitive midi drum thing

The intention is to lay down the basic tracks with the Roland--more rock solid than I could do manually.
Then with some cymbal samples I have made with borrowed cymbals--several different strikes, some with real long tails--much longer than any old drum program would waste on a sample--I would play these with sticks on the drum pads, hopefully adding some living breathing sparkle to the tracks.
Short of buying some much better gear, I'm thinking that this is a good way help overcome the sterility and deadness of purely mechanical tracks.
(I might do the same with snare--I could probably buy some samples of that.)

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 21 Nov 2000 5:21 am

Thanks for all the replies guys. A problem with a real drummer for me is the geographical remoteness of my home. The drummer I work with in the band is world class....it's just that the members of the band are spread out over a 200 mile radius.
It is hard for them to make it up here between our playing and their individual lifes.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 21 Nov 2000 8:27 am

Steve:

of course the ideal is a good live drummer.

second best is Fred Murphey's procedure (as well as Jack Stoner's) of programming the tune in PG Music'sBand In A Box in a style close to what you want. You then export that to a Standard MIDI File which you can Import into a Sequencer Program such as Cakewalk Pro Audio or a related less pricey Cakewalk product; PG Music's PowerTrax or record the result onto a tape multitrack.

Then you mute or delete the tracks you don't want. And edit the result to your hearts content.

You can elaborate on this by programming short sections of a tune in BIAB. Each time BIAB generates a MIDI file from the same progression chart it is subtly different. you can use these sections to give variety to the Sequencer file- not just a static repetitive drumbeat (unless, of course, that is what you want.)

Back in the DOS days there was a great pattern based drum program called "Drummer"- gave a grid, each line of which was assigned to a MIDI drum sound. each column was a subdivision of a measure, several measures visible.
clicking in a box would play the sound at that point in the measure. I have seen nothing like this since windows came in. shame too. Could play a module like a standalone drum machine.

A pricey alternative is "Twiddly Bits"- cd's full of short (8-16 bars) MIDI drum pattern snippits played by professional studio guys, that you cut and paste into your sequencer to create drum lines.

another interesting alternative, not MIDI based but looped audio based is Sonic Foundy's ACID (or less expensive but still way cool ACID Music) based on loops of wav audio

You have a library of loops (4-32 bar length) of whatever, drums, bass, guitars, odd synth, technocrap noizes.( the loops that come with the ACID Music program are limited but there are cd libraries of loops available- most deal with dance type styles, but there are country and other genres represented)

You select a loop and then "paint" as much as you want of it into a track on the screen. draw another sound into another track and- darn if they don't sync right up!
once it's in the program you can speed it up or slow it down, transpose... it's really amazing.

You can then export the result to a stereo audio file to import into Cakewalk (or another audio/sequencer) and buld up tracks from there...

So as you see There are many available options for the geographically challenged musical D-I-Y'er, of which these are only a few...the $$ and learning curves are the hardest part- and with BIAB it's pretty dern cheap and easy to build songs to play on top of...

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"I AM ZUMBODY!"

Zumsteel U12 "Loafer" 8&6 :: Fender T-8 Stringmaster :: Fender Tube Amplification
MooseMuseMusicSite :: vanallen@voicenet.com

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 21 November 2000 at 08:41 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 24 Nov 2000 5:43 pm

Lot's of good replies.... I just got back from Houston today. I did not pick up BIAB, but did pick up a new reverb by TC Electronics called the M One. It sounds pretty awesome. Toys...Toys....more Toys.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Jeff Hogsten · Post by **Jeff Hogsten** » 24 Nov 2000 9:42 pm

Steve

Ive been working on this problem for several months and have come up with results that Im very happy with. First off forget drum machines. I assume you have a computer.Now get a sampler. I suggest a kurzweil you can get these for about $800 off the net now. I suggest these because they have a built in sequencer that is plenty good enough for a drum tack. Put about 64 meg of memory in it. Get doulble platnum drums and session drums by sweet water sound and your sounds will be better than most studios can do. I can help you with the disc if you go this route. Giga sampler is a good option Im looking into. Now for the programing itself. Look up a company called beat boy. They have several disc of professional drumers playing song with vaious beats on midi drums. One is be Eddie Beyers, played for the Judds Allen Jackson, Ive used the track from Chatahocie on so many songs just at different tempos. You wont believe it. My tracks sound like I had Ed in the studio playing live drums. I can give you some tips if you go that route but it is the best thing Ive heard. Another thing I read a remark by Craig Anderton not long ago with the dropping price of memory processors and hard drives there is going to be no limitation to what you can do on a comp and any other way of recording is going to be obsolite. Ive started experimenting with cubase and cakewalk. YOu can also get a program called drag and drop drummer and beatboy has disc of every kind of music but drummer like Nigel Olsen of Elton John and the Dixie Dregs drummer cant think of his name and they are awsome. There is a great new book called cakewalk power out. Ive already been mixing to computer and soon start to tracking. I mean for $400 for cakewalk and a few hundred dollars of plug ins and a $1000 computer you can compeat with a work class studio Just my opionion

Jeff

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 25 Nov 2000 8:39 am

Jeff, you're right about the versatility of the computer, but there's one drawback. Computers crash. One has to be constantly backing stuff up to prevent loss of material. That's a big reason I went with a Roland VS-1680. It mixes, edits, masters to CD, built-in effects, all in one box and does not crash. You can also interface with a computer for other things. There's also a great forum for VS users called the VS Planet. [This message was edited by John Lacey on 25 November 2000 at 08:40 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 28 Nov 2000 6:19 am

Speaking of computers and or hard disk systems; has anyone had any experience with the new Tascam 24 channel hard drive? I think the Mackie unit looks pretty cool but as of yet is not shipping.

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 1 Dec 2000 9:39 am

The Computer/Sampling route is the way to go but if the $ and learning curve bug you, You can find the alesis Sr-16 cheap, easy to program. I've cut MANY Cds here in my studio using one, one of the great things is being able to change all of the drum sounds, fills, etc. at any stage even into the final or remix stages, and you can't do that with a live drum track. Two suggestions- experiment with the "Swing" settings on various drums within the track, and overdub live cymbals. The cymbals in the machine just don't have enough memory allocation for proper real sounding decay.

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Mark van Allen-"Blueground Undergrass" Pedal, Non-Pedal, Lap, and Dobro

John Enterline · Post by **John Enterline** » 2 Dec 2000 1:07 pm

I am getting sucked back into this again, but have no real recording devices so can kind of start from scratch (just sold a Tascam 546). Here is my plan.

Work bought me a powerful laptop with USB ports, 30 gigs of drive, and a burner. My plan is to purchase the new Roland ED U-8 unit which plugs into the PC through the USB port. It acts as an external sound card, a mixer, and has all of the Roland VS effects. It comes with Cakewalk and you can control most of the functions without using a mouse - but real controls on the U-8. I kind of end up with a VS 890 unit that has cakewalk and a burner built in for cheap (as I already have the laptop.)

I don't know what types of drum effects the Roland VS units come with - I thought none. Should I get the BIAB to set songs up with in this environment and how does this interface with Roland effects? What plugins are good? Any suggestions????

Thanks

JOhn

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 2 Dec 2000 6:30 pm

John: Don't know much about the VS sounds, other than I had VS-88 which I deleted because of latency problems, that is, hit a midi note and it sounds a second later. That can be accounted for but means changing settings for different uses.

I bought a roland jv-1010 sound module and it has great sounds.

By all means, get BIAB. Now is a the best time because they have great deals going for the new version 10. I got the whole deal, Megapack 10 for $99 as an upgrade. With the roland and BIAB, the sounds are great.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 2 Dec 2000 11:19 pm

Hey Steve,

The Mackie is close. I am sitting and playing with one of the 25 or so that have shipped to dealers as I speak (write). Production models are close behind.

Looks pretty good. Smokes the Tascam except you can only use one set of I/O cards at a time. The Tascam and the Radar 24 can use both sets at the same time.

I was about to buy the Radar, but the Mackie is looking pretty good, especially for half the price.

Back to the money pit.....

John Enterline · Post by **John Enterline** » 3 Dec 2000 12:22 am

Ken,

I don't see a $99 deal from BIAB. But there are two deals for new users. One is $88 and includes 6 disks. The other is $249 and seems to includes everything they produce (looks like 38 disk or so.) Should I go for the whole deal or the smaller 88 bucker?

The new Roland ED U-8 bascially is hardware(8 channel mixer and inputs) and a sound card into a USB on your computer. It provides real mixer slides, other controls, all of the Roland effects (like the ones in the VS890), and sound card inputs/outputs for mics, guitars, speakers, etc. It allows you to use cakewalk using a more conventional interface (hardware) versus a mouse trying to adjust levels, etc. I am going to try one out as they are about $500 and come with the home studio version of cakewalk.

Would love your opinion and others on whether to go for the $249 deal from BIAB or stay low with the 88 bucker.

Thanks

JOhn