'Fine Tuning' Korg Rack Tuners????

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 5 Nov 2000 8:52 am

I just got a Korg DTR-1 tuner. Very nice tuner - nice features, and a lot of good things I could say about it, but the accuracy on the cents scale seems to be +/- 5 cents based on LEDs. On a tuner with a needle gauge, you can easily tell the difference between +6 cents and +8 cents, for example, but on the Korg, all you can say is that it's somewhere between 5-10 cents....perhaps, based on the strength of the lights, a little closer to 5 than 10, or vice versa, but still - you can't really tell.

I realize that I can BARELY hear a couple of cents difference, but for a really nice tuner, you'd think that you could have better than +/- 5 cents accuracy.

Anyone?[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 05 November 2000 at 08:53 AM.]

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 5 Nov 2000 9:43 am

I've looked at them and that looks like a drawback as far as tuning steel is concerned, unless you tune everything to "zero".

If it is + or - 5 cents because of the LED's, then it is also + or - whatever the accuracy is, which could make it quite a bit out.

My Peavey Transtube Fex has a built in cents tuner and Peavey says + or - 2 cents is essentially in tune.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 5 Nov 2000 10:00 am

Actually, Jack, after having another look, I think the accuracy is more like about +/-2.5 cents on either side of a 'known' LED (e.g., 5, 10, 15, etc.). At least I can interpolate that close, and the numbers check out with a pretty good hand held needle-type unit that I have.

Still, you'd think they'd want to design this thing a little 'tighter'.

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 5 Nov 2000 2:17 pm

Steve, that's a little closer. Still it looks to me like it was designed for the guitar players that tune everything "0".

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 5 Nov 2000 7:58 pm

Use the Hertz scale.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 6 Nov 2000 7:11 am

Jeff - I would think that using the Hz scale would only marginally improve your ability to resolve tones with the tuner. E.g. 1 Hz = ~4 cents. One LED unit on the tuner, Hz or cents, still doesn't buy you much. I really like a lot of the features of this tuner, but ability to resolve tones down to sub-Hertz or ~2 cents is not one of it's strong points. I think Jack got it right. It's probably designed for the guitar (or other ) player who tunes straight up 440.

MHO.

Steve

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 6 Nov 2000 5:29 pm

Steve, I asked about a year ago how to use the DTR-1. The answer I received was to estimate in between the markes as to the cents/hertz you are trying to tune to. I am finding this tuner to be not to my liking and will probably go back to a needle type tuner. Look for mine to be for sale soon on Buy and Sell.

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

Allen Staron · Post by **Allen Staron** » 6 Nov 2000 7:25 pm

Does anyone recommend a good rackmount tuner?

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 6 Nov 2000 7:49 pm

Don't get me wrong here, folks. This thing has A LOT going for it. It gives a FAR MORE stable signal than anything I've seen in a hand held - especially on the low strings. It's right there in the rack, large dial and all, looking you right in the face for whenever you feel like tweaking things - just a click away.

But I DO find it kind of odd to have to be interpolating between the marks - like Richard said. Big fancy rack tuner and I'm interpolating between the marks....weird.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 7 Nov 2000 7:18 am

The DTR-1 works just fine. If you have to have some closer reading to tune, it kinda seems like it ain't a tuner you need. Maybe you might try another tuning method...if you use Jeff Newman's, try Buddy Emmon's, or someone else's. I think reading a machine that says you're perfectly in tune is not so important as playing and sounding in tune, the two don't always jive.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 7 Nov 2000 2:12 pm

. If you have to have some closer reading to tune, it kinda seems like it ain't a tuner you need.

Jeff - My problem is not with my tuning. I've tried everything that's come down the pike: ET, JI, -b0b-'s Non-Critical Tuning, various other harmonic methods (Bradshaw's, Emmons', other Forum member's). I'm comfortable with the way I tune, and with sounding in tune as well.

I'm simply commenting on the tuner. I still think that although the Korg DTR-1 "works just fine", I find it silly for such a nice tuner to have a resolution on the order of +/-2.5 cents when people need to tune finer than that. Am I saying that you can't get finer than that with this tuner? Not at all. However, if I were designing a new digital tuner, there is NO WAY I would I limit it to +/-2.5 cent resolution, and I think that's the reason some folks either stay away from these Korgs, or sell them.

I don't think we disagree on the overall quality of this thing. It's really nice, but I don't think I'd give it a perfect 10. My opinion.

Harold Parris · Post by **Harold Parris** » 7 Nov 2000 2:36 pm

I advise any steel player that wants to put up the money that a DTR- 1 cost to go ahead and buy a MT-1200. The MT 1200 is more accurate and you can PROGRAM your open and pedal temperment into it. When you are out playing you can check the open and pedal tuning by the automatic mode. If a pedal or string needs tweaking, you tune it by the meter to the 0 indicator. This is a great advantage when you are tuning in a noisy enviroment where you can't hear the sounds very well.

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Sierra Session and MSA Classic Guitars, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 Amps.
Harold Parris email hparrisal@aol.com

Patrick Ickes · Post by **Patrick Ickes** » 7 Nov 2000 6:00 pm

OK Harold,
I'll bite. What's a(n) MT-1200???

Pat

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 7 Nov 2000 6:50 pm

I agree that the DTR-1 is not as "user Friendly" as a needle type tuner. The reason I bought my DTR-1 is that I could keep it in line all the time and tune up any time I felt necessary. Having to "interpret" the LED's is not cool though. Show me solid numbers. I'm thinking of a Korg MT-1200. About the same price as the rackmount stuff.

Steve, you need to get to one of my jams. I'm looking forward to spanking (oops, I mean meating you, d@mn, I mean meeting you).
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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 07 November 2000 at 06:53 PM.]

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 7 Nov 2000 7:09 pm

I guess I should qualify what I mean about the Korg.....I don't use alot of different numbers to tune. I could, (and do), use the strobe to tune. I'm mostly 'straight up' in my tuning method, I guess it's because of years of trying to be 'in' with a grand piano.....and a band that can hear the difference...fiddle player notwithstanding.....it's a joke-it's a joke!

Harold Parris · Post by **Harold Parris** » 7 Nov 2000 7:41 pm

Pactrick, a MT-1200 is made by Korg also. It has 10 temperment scales on it and the 9th is programable. You set the display mode to temperment, select number 9, and punch in the notes for you steel's open tuning , one at a time, and set the note to true 440 or sharp or flat. when you've made yor selection you press the set button and put in another note and it's temperment. You do this with your pedal and knee lever notes also. When you've completed the first octave of notes the tuner will automatically set the next octave. You press the mode button twice and the tuner goes into automatic mode. You then tune your open string, pedals and knee levers to the 0 on the scale and they are tuned to the temperment you previously selected. It's a great meter and I wouldn't try to do without one at all. Each time you turn it on there after it automatically goes to the temperment you selected. You can over ride it if you want to tune some other type of instrument with your meter.

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Sierra Session and MSA Classic Guitars, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 Amps.
Harold Parris email hparrisal@aol.com

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 7 Nov 2000 7:45 pm

Harold, do you play a single neck? I can see how your custom settings would work on a single neck, but not on a double neck. For example, the A's on E9 are usually tuned straight up, while the A's on C6 are usually tuned slightly flat.

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 7 Nov 2000 7:47 pm

Final word from me on this topic (famous last words...): I REALLY DO LIKE THIS TUNER. If I tuned to some specific number formula, I might decide not to keep the tuner. But, I DO like it for all the reasons listed above, both by me and you all.

And Richard - Yep, I'm ready to come on over. Like I said, I'll be gone all this next week at a conference, but I'll catch the next one. Course, it sounds like I'll have a fight on my hands with Bill Llewellyn for worst steel player.

Thanks for the feedback. Cattch you all on another wildly controversial topic.

Steve

Harold Parris · Post by **Harold Parris** » 7 Nov 2000 8:28 pm

Jim, I do play a single neck and the MT 1200 is perfect for that. It would be a little different if you tuned a double neck in the 6th with it but you could temper the 6th like you have to do the 9th on most all meters. I think the 9th is more sensitive to tuning to the perfect temperment than the 6th is. I may be wrong in that opinion though.

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Sierra Session and MSA Classic Guitars, Nashville 400, Session 400, and Evans FET 500 Amps.
Harold Parris email hparrisal@aol.com

Bill Rowlett · Post by **Bill Rowlett** » 8 Nov 2000 7:33 am

Steve,

Yeah, It would be nice to be able to push a button and get +/- 5 or ten cents on the full scale instead of the standard +/- 20 cents. Then each led could be 1 cent instead of 5. By the way, when two leds are lit, you split the difference, i.e. 2.5 cents. I use that for tuning the thirds sometimes.

I'm with Jeff too. I mostly tune straight up and hardly ever hit the green light perfectly. There is so much variance with temperature, strings and hystersis from sticking mechanisms that being perfect on the open tuning is mostly an exercise in frustration. One minute you're in and the next second it is out. Ninety percent of the time you're playing up the neck anyway, so I just listen and use the bar as I play. I've got a Conn strobe tuner that's dead on, but the Korg works fine for my live rack. Did I mention that I hate temperature swings. . .

Bill

Steve Feldman · Post by **Steve Feldman** » 8 Nov 2000 10:25 am

Did I mention that I hate temperature swings. . .

It's mood swings that I have a problem with....[This message was edited by Steve Feldman on 08 November 2000 at 10:26 AM.]