Why is "rap" called music?

Jimmy Youngblood · Post by **Jimmy Youngblood** » 13 Nov 2006 9:43 pm

The original "rapper" was Ernest T. Bass.

The Andy Griffith Show .. 1961

Jason Odd · Post by **Jason Odd** » 13 Nov 2006 9:53 pm

how awesome, a bunch of dudes talking about a genre they don't like and don't understand.

Arty Passes · Post by **Arty Passes** » 13 Nov 2006 10:59 pm

Now I'm no fan of rap, but I can't help thinking about parallels through the history of music. My dad thought Led Zeppelin was noise (and I'm sure some of you agree),but I knew different. I'm not a fan of most 80s metal music, but the guys I travel with sometimes listen to it and I've come to appreciate some of the good stuff.
Every generation changes what came before and finds what speaks to it. Johnny Cash and Elvis were villified in their day. Now before the attacks start about comparing them to rap, I'm just drawing comparisons about the acceptance of new forms of music. Rap doesn't speak to us, but it does to many, and it's not all evil, but that's what gets noticed by people looking to put it down. There's a Louvin Brothers song called Knoxville Girl that's about killing a girl, dragging her around by her hair, drowning her, and all sorts of nasty stuff. We can find what we want to find.
As far as being simplistic and repetitive, there are plenty of examples of that in country music too.
No, I don't like most of it either, but I also don't like opera, celtic music, and a lot of stuff that has come out of Nashville in the past 50 years, but if others connect with it, who am I to say it's not valid just because it doesn't speak to me.

"Giving" anything to the underprivileged has nothing to do with anything, but that is a revealing comment. And remember, one man's political incorrectness is another man's rudeness. Am I being (gasp) too politically correct if I don't tell our redneck fans what I really think about their rebel flags? (Also don't want to get my ass kicked)
It's all a matter of perspective - political incorrectness can cut both ways.

Not trying to win converts, just trying to play devil's advocate and offer a different perspective than the gang up on 'em mentality......

I keep imagining internet posts in the 1930s decrying that awful newfangled Western Swing music. "Can you imagine - drums and horns!!! That ain't country music! And tell that Wills guy to quit hollerin all the time!!! That ain't music!!!"

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 13 Nov 2006 11:05 pm

This [Dude] hopes he never does UNDERSTAND it.If that did happen I would know I had lost my passion for MUSIC!!!!

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 13 Nov 2006 11:41 pm

comparing Johnny Cash to todays rap?? now arty you don't even believe that one i know better. I don't recall johnny and june using the filth that todays rap does....

a bunch of dudes talking about a genre they don't like and don't understand.

i have been around kids for the past 20 some years...and i can tell you that i know what i hear, what's there to understand? and like i said in my first post people have a right to listen to the type of {gulp hard swallow} music, they please, not trying to gang up on anything..i said i could "handle" christian rap for a purpose, i still think it's trash, but like david said..it's not my market or sold towards my age group..i agree...we hear, we listen..and like Fox News...we decide! Gotta move along, not going to beat this thing to death, but i said earlier..if you like it..go for it, i agree with the author of this thread, kinda makes a feller feel kinda..blah..when you call that noise music..to each their own...i gotta run and see if jennings ward has the baked possum ready yet...see ya's....
ed it ted fur spell'en[This message was edited by George Redmon on 13 November 2006 at 11:51 PM.]

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 14 Nov 2006 12:32 am

Rap is music. Live with it. If it has a beat, it's music, and the rapper definitely has rhythm. I don't like rap, but I don't dislike it to the point where I would say it's not music.

As for 'liberal fundamentalism', there is no such thing.

The word 'liberal' has the same origin as the word 'liberty', and to be liberal is to want freedom. In this case, freedom of expression. In today's music business, just about anything goes, and I like that.

To be a fundamentalist means getting back to basics, to work within constraints. I don't see much room for creative thinking in a world governed by fundamentalists.

We've gone through this issue time and again, what is music and what is noise. Music is whatever you make of it, and if you find music you don't like, don't listen to it.

erik · Post by **erik** » 14 Nov 2006 2:33 am

I don't listen to rap, but I listen to House music. Both of these genres are heavilly dominated by DJs, many of which are producers. People who are accomplished at arranging quality rap or House compositions are artists. They may or may not be musicians but they have more skills in musical arrangement then most musicians IN THIS FORUM! I always say, put up or shut up. If you're such a great musician lets hear your own creative works not you playing someone else's songs. Then show me it's success on a major chart. Yes, there have been some cheap @$$ rap producers who loop the same sample through a whole song but many rap and House producers have more complex arrangements. You're also not considering that when working with electronic instruments or samplers that the palette is infinite, while a band is limited to a few pieces.

Here is one of the best songs I've heard in years, any genre, it's produced by Louie Vega, a House DJ/producer:
http://www.traxsource.com/index.php?act=show&fc=tpage&cr=titles&cv=4959

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-johnson

[This message was edited by erik on 14 November 2006 at 02:42 AM.]

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 14 Nov 2006 2:53 am

Wasn't it Wynton Marsalis , the great Jazz trumpeter and educator who said " what's so hip about chanting in iambic pentameter "

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 14 Nov 2006 4:57 am

I just wish I could find a smilie that shows me wretching while reading of the defense of that garbage.

Oh, I wish I could be as "enlightened"
as some of you obviously are.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 14 Nov 2006 6:24 am

I'm always curious, that's what got me into music in the first place. So while I don't necessarily like what I hear, I try to never confuse my personal taste with some sort of objective and universal truth about good and bad music. That's how I learned to enjoy country music.

I try to keep my mind open and search for qualities in everything I hear and don't judge a whole genre based on what's on the charts. The day I stop being curious I might as well stop playing music.

It's up to everyone of us how narrow we want to make our world.

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Nov 2006 6:42 am

"what's so hip about chanting in iambic pentameter"

Well Shakespear for instance.

Noise is in the ear of the beholder... to twist a phrase.

It is also quite generational and age variable.
Those who grew up with Marshalls,
have more of an affinity for distortion
than those who grew up with only clean amps.

Those who grew up ONLY hearing Bluegrass didn't cotten to amps sop much.

I have produced Rap, for a fee, so I DO understand it.

That doesn't mean I like a lot of it.

Talking Fundamentalist.
raps is the prpgeny of african tribal peoples chanting the stories of the tribe to wooden hand drums,
so that the societies culture could be passed on orally.

To some extent that is what is STILL happening in rap.
Unfortunatelt a lot of the society
SOME rappers come from is a pretty
mean set of streets.

Cab Callowy certianly came in a few decades BEFORE Earnest T.

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 14 Nov 2006 7:43 am

If it's music, would someone put the notes down on paper for me, of an Eminem or Fifty cent "song"? I would think the sheet music companies would be capitalizing on this opportunity.

Arty Passes · Post by **Arty Passes** » 14 Nov 2006 7:49 am

Some of you guys are way too predictable - unless you have reading problem, I said I wasn't camparing the music of Johnny Cash to rap, but the acceptance of new forms of music, and the public reaction to the latest pushing of the envelope. In the 50s they thought Elvis' hips shaking was filthy. Now we laugh at it, but the next generation will do the same to you - in fact, the rap artists already are - all the way to the bank.
But don't let logic interfere with a good rant....
Fox News? now george you dont even believe that one I know better. You said it best "To each his own"

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 14 Nov 2006 9:04 am

Music is a collection of sounds that is pleasing (to someone). Bird songs are considered music, as are the drum scores of a marching band. Heck, I guess even generals consider artillery fire as a sort of "music". Therefore, in the broadest interpretation, I don't think we can argue that Rap isn't music, indeed it is. However, classifying (most of) it as "good music" might still be arguable.

Post by **b0b** » 14 Nov 2006 9:44 am

Why do you post about "rap" in the Music section of the Steel Guitar Forum?

Richard Bass · Post by **Richard Bass** » 14 Nov 2006 9:53 am

I agree with b0b. Not sure what category rap should be in but it's not "Music".
Richard

Arty Passes · Post by **Arty Passes** » 14 Nov 2006 10:11 am

et tu, b0b?
Sorry, thought you were more open minded...

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 14 Nov 2006 10:25 am

Aaaaahhh! The voice of reason, AMEN, b0b!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 14 Nov 2006 10:40 am

I think if you don't like rap, you don't like rap. But it really doesn't matter whether you like it or not, or call it music or not. There are millions of people who do, and dare I say, a lot more people who like rap than like country. Personally I'd much prefer going to a rap concert than a country concert, but that is just me. The truth is, I wouldn't go to either.

I remember when 6 mile came out. I liked the movie and I liked the music. I think a lot of people did who otherwise hadn't been exposed to rap before. Everything I've heard by Emmenem I've liked. Again I don't listen to a lot but I still have a particular rap song in my head that I must of heard 15 years ago. It was very catchy and it still pops up in my head from time to time. I remember when Rapper's Delight came out from the Sugarhill Gang and I loved that tune. I think you have to be attuned to rhythm based music.

I guess the main point is that no one really cares if YOU think it is music or not. Enough people do to make it one of the most successful genres out there. [This message was edited by Bill McCloskey on 14 November 2006 at 10:42 AM.]

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 14 Nov 2006 11:28 am

Do I own one rap CD?

No

Have I ever been to a rap concert and do I plan on going in the future?

No

Do I believe some rappers have talent?

Yes

I sure don't like the content of some of his lyrics, but I do believe Emenem is a talented individual.

I saw the group East Mountain South open for Lucinda Williams a couple of years ago. They have sort of an ethereal bluegrass/country/folk sound. On one of their songs they ended the piece and morphed into an Eminem number-it was actually kind've cool.

Not something I would attempt myself.

P.S. I like to pull my kids chains by playing Charlie Daniels' "The Devil Went Down To Gerogia" and Jerry Reed's "Amos Moses" and tell them that these guys were "the fathers of rap."

San Francisco bizarre rocker, founder of Primus, and bassist extradonaire Les Claypool did a great version of "Amos Moses" several years ago...

------------------
Mark

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 14 Nov 2006 11:29 am

Having a post titled "Why is rap called music"... is the equivalent of a brocolli-hater posing the question "Why is broccoli called food?"

Worded that way, the debate is invalid on it's face.

There is only one thing here, and it's "personal taste." A broad, absolute, blanket statement like "brocolli just isn't food" -- at least in my opionion -- is, well... just stop and listen to those words as they tumble out of your mouth.

Which is to say, nobody here has yet convinced me that, because they hate brocolli so much, it should now be considered a non-food item for all people, everywhere.

Because that might be considered a little foolish. Like an eleven-year-old that was suddenly crowned King and permitted to Make Proclamations on behalf of The Entire Kingdom based on his personal whims.

Sorry to hijack this thread! I'll start my own Brocolli King thread somewhere else.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Nov 2006 12:21 pm

mu‧sic
–noun

1. an art of sound in time that expresses ideas and emotions in significant forms through the elements of rhythm, melody, harmony, and color.

(RAP does fit in this definition,
if not as a shining example...)

2. the tones or sounds employed, occurring in single line (melody) or multiple lines (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

(it specifies not that it need be a complicated melody,
Rap has multiple lines,
One or more vioces and instruments)

3. musical work or compositions for singing or playing.

(fits more or less)

4. the written or printed score of a musical composition.

( rap falls down here.)

5. such scores collectively.

(Yeah right a folio of rap charts..)

6. any sweet, pleasing, or harmonious sounds or sound: the music of the waves.es (harmony), and sounded or to be sounded by one or more voices or instruments, or both.

(If birds and waves can be musical even guys
with little or no musical creativity
can still make something in the catagory,
doesn't mean it's GOOD music,
Pleasing is in the ear of the beholder)

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 14 Nov 2006 12:36 pm

another definition of music:

form of auditory communication incorporating instrumental or vocal tones in a structured and continuous manner

Rap qualifies. It's communicating something to somebody even if it ain't you, in a structured and (arguably monotonously) continuous manner.

I don't listen to much, but then I am not the target demographic.
Same reason I don't listen to much current Country music anymore.

but to answer the topic question, that's why rap can be called music, whether you "like" it or don't "like" it

and I get the feeling b0b's point was why are you even bringing it up on a Steel Guitar forum in ANY topic area? I could be wrong, and b0b forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth...

[This message was edited by Dave Van Allen on 14 November 2006 at 12:39 PM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 14 Nov 2006 1:32 pm

Points well taken. Close this thread b0b.

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 14 Nov 2006 2:05 pm

Music -- organized sound.