Copyright Law Gone Amuk

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 10 Oct 2006 12:13 pm

http://www.blogs.oregonlive.com/oregonian/newsupdates/default.asp?item=214112

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 10 Oct 2006 12:31 pm

Ridiculous and tragic.... This is the kind of stuff that makes people lose respect for everything that has to do with copyrights..

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
Southern Moon Northern Lights

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Oct 2006 12:54 pm

$30,000 for one song ? $750 for one song ?

I would let this one go all the way to the bench...

Where's the ACLU when ya need them most....

"Your Honor, the night the Band played that $30,000 song, I grossed $86 at the Bar".

"Obviously your Honor, the $30,000 song in the real world is not worth more than the $86 I grossed that night and I am happy to give them the whole $86."

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 10 Oct 2006 12:59 pm

My band got kicked out of a restaurant gig for the same reason many years ago.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 10 Oct 2006 1:15 pm

This will probably be the next fad--going after bars for ridiculous amounts for royalties. They do have to pay the BMI/ASCAP fees, but that is flatout insane.

I guess now that the internet has destroyed the record business, they'll resort to anything to make money.

I see where Todd Rundgren is giving his CD's away with the price of admission at his concerts. He figured that now that he only makes something like 97 cents a copy after the label is done with him, he may as well distribute his music for free.

Tower Records closed their doors today.

Time they are a changin', that's for sure. Things are a mess.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 10 Oct 2006 2:14 pm

The Hendrix estate in particular seems to be dedicated to trying to exploit him every way they can and squeeze the last drop from every source - there's been a lot of family infighting too. I guess if you're a relative of a dead genius, it's more profitable these days to file lawsuits and license bobblehead figures than it is to go get a job your own self. The lawyers inventing claims to leech on don't help either.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Oct 2006 2:39 pm

the Internet didn't destroy the Record business..it changed it.

what it did was finally allow folks to actually HEAR what it is they were gonna purchase before they made the purchase.

For decades the Record companys sold LP's and CD's that could not be returned..no satisfaction guarantee..you spent $16 ..you own it for life..

Some Artists made lots of $$$ on BAD CD's(LP's) , those days are over...In my mind The Record Companies created the monsters that they turned into..greed sucking leach weasles.

Now they are screaming bloody murder and claiming foul...the market figured out a way to reverse the blood sucking, legal or not.

Tower records made lots of bucks on old LP's.I purchased lots of out of print LP's and old CD's from them. There day came to an end, they didn't change there business to match a new era...thats not the fault of the Internet.

I hope someone with some common sense comes up with a copyright format...other than handing over $30,000 to the Hendrix estate which makes NO sense.

There's plenty of artists up there on the legal websites such as Rhapsody which we can pay a minimum monthly fee to hear endless music and decide to purchase or not to purchase. Buying 1 song at a time is turning into the Industry standard, and I personally feel that is a good thing. It will not make hokey artists with lousy CD's millionaires overnight just because they wrote every song on the CD.

By the way I listened to George Straits CD today on Rhapsody, I am most likely going to buy it. It is worth the price.

I have no way of knowing whats gonna happen in the clubs...but it appears that the blood suckers who want cash are gonna find a way to get it.

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 October 2006 at 03:44 PM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 10 Oct 2006 3:21 pm

Tony, before I got to the bottem of your post I was set to write that George Strait's new CD is worth every dollar. I've been listening to it every day in my work truck.

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-johnson

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 10 Oct 2006 4:59 pm

The bar owner didn't think he needed to pay the estimated $2000 cost to cover the performance of copyrighted tunes since covers are rare, so now he's going to pay between $750 to $30,000 for each tune...

Pay $2000 to cover performance of copyrighted tunes, or be sued up to $30,000 for each tune?

This is ridiculous and shameful, gouging at its worst. When I think back to how many bars I played at, who probably didn't pay anything to anyone and we did all covers... didn't realize how much I'd gotten away with til now.

No wonder live music is dying.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 10 October 2006 at 06:03 PM.]

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 10 Oct 2006 5:53 pm

Tony, what I meant was that it ruined the record companies' business. It changed it for the rest of us for the better in terms of being able to sample music etc. But, the combination of the advent of the affordable home studio/CD reproduction etc., and the internet for marketing has finally given the greed mongering record industry what it has deserved for too long.

Webb

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 10 Oct 2006 6:02 pm

Webb, agreed. had the Record companies not been so blind sided by the large amounts of cash, they could have worked there way around the Internet and used it for gain as well.

Someone didn't see the BIGGER picture...

As far as paying royalties to play at clubs, I've always felt that was a stretch..yeh, there is a legal case to be made, but at some point madness takes over.

by the way, who gets the $2000 ?
[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 10 October 2006 at 07:09 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 10 Oct 2006 6:21 pm

...by the way, who gets the $2000 ?

Naturally, the lawyers.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 10 Oct 2006 9:02 pm

What's next? Are these people going to go after buskers on street corners?

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 10 Oct 2006 9:19 pm

A few years ago a California company that records MIDI files for sale went after all the MIDI file sites on the internet. I read a little about the case. In court, arguing about what constitutes copyright infringement, the copyright guys were asked, "so, technically then, if a person walks down the street whistling a copyrighted song, that's copyright infringement?" Their answer was, "Yes". That's where they're coming from. They just can't enforce it that far....yet.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 10 October 2006 at 10:19 PM.]

Mike Ester · Post by **Mike Ester** » 11 Oct 2006 2:55 am

Tower Records closed their doors today.

I heard about that yesterday. Ironically, the CEO was alleged to say something to the effect that, "The (business) model does not work anymore. I'm 62 and I have an iPod."

At least he can see the forest for the trees. Too bad about Tower Records, though.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Oct 2006 4:09 am

I think the era of join em' instead of fight em' is just around the corner.

IF we look at the content deals YouTube has made and is in negotiation with, this may be the future.

Those who complain about Copyright violations instead of figuring out a way to join the party..will be left in the dust.

Music, as well as the Internet, ain't going away anytime soon...it would be wise to find a path to compromise.[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 11 October 2006 at 05:48 AM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Oct 2006 5:06 am

There is still a choice. I've seen a few places go to "all-original" formats - bands must play original music. I believe that clubs could greatly reduce or eliminate their liability by insisting that bands sign agreements to play only original or public domain tunes, or accept liability for royalties if they don't. Frankly, I'd love to see this - I think it would be good for the music scene in a lot of cover-band-hell college towns. We do not have to play their game. I'm not against cover tunes, but there should be a way to run a club without having to deal with this. IMO, of course.

But quite frankly, the recent changes in copyright laws need to be rolled back, IMO. This is more a matter of ordinary people taking back the political system, but that is politics, and I don't want to get into that.

[This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 11 October 2006 at 06:18 AM.]

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 11 Oct 2006 6:27 am

I did a lot of club work in the old days and ASCAP was the only agency which ever gave a hassell to anyone. Some places would have a sign on the bandstand stating "No ASCAP music performed here" or something like that. I never saw or heard of any problems with BMI or SESAC at all, maybe someone else did? ASCAP was the only dog in the pen for a long time and BMI shot 'em out of the saddle on a lot of country music.........JH in Va.

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Don't matter who's in Austin (or anywhere else) Ralph Mooney is still the king!!!

Brett Anderson · Post by **Brett Anderson** » 11 Oct 2006 2:30 pm

I'm hoping the internet wipes out the big record companies and hopefully the radio stations too. They did it to themselves by ripping off artists and musicians and flooding the market with substandard, unlistenable garbage. They are getting what they got coming.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 11 Oct 2006 2:50 pm

Right on, Brett!

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 11 Oct 2006 3:12 pm

As I'm reading this I am listening to Doug Jernigan's new CD (it's awesome) that I found at his internet site and through b0b's forum.

No record company necessary.

Don't need the radio.

Terry

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 11 Oct 2006 6:32 pm

These threads always confuse me...are we against the big, bad record companies or the performing rights organizations like ASCAP and BMI??? Cause you can close down all the big, bad record companies tomorrow, and the club still has to get a license to perform or play music. It's the law-federal law-and it will only be changed by Congress, not the internet or downloading or flogging A&R men and label presidents for putting out crappy music or whatever. And trust me, the clubs always lose, cause it is the law...

$2000 for a license is about 5 and a half dollars a day. If music played or performed in your establishment to entertain and/or make money off your clientle is not worth paying for, it's really pretty easy, just shut it off--I'm sure your patrons won't mind at all.

The performing rights organizations represent songwriters and their publishers. Is their system perfect? Of course not, but this is how songwriters make there living. If you think they are ripping off club owners and such, call your congressperson and senator--I do all the time, supporting the rights of songwiters and copyright owners...

Clyde Mattocks · Post by **Clyde Mattocks** » 11 Oct 2006 9:35 pm

This sort of thing has happened to a few clubs around here and it has always been a scare tactic to force the club to buy an
ASCAP or BMI license. Incidentally, I am a
BMI writer and I perform my original material
in clubs, but I have never received a check
from them for live performance, so where does
this license money go?

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 12 Oct 2006 1:42 am

John , you raise a valid argument, I don't think anyone here is against writers getting paid.

perhaps many clubs are paying the $2000/ year..

and that would be a good thing, If I was a club owner, I would..
but the question is..

who gets the cash ? The writers or someone representing the PUB company ?

I suspect the writers basically get nothing..so here's the way I see it..

Someone gets paid $$$ for the right to play someone elses music...

As far as the record Co's go, for years they issued a product, good or bad...if it was good, yeah..we were happy..

if it was a lousy CD, no recourse.No returns.

You can return a $2000 big screen TV but not an $11 CD...because of the copyright card...

I doubt the argument here has anything to do with writers getting paid..it's about paying..and the artists are still not getting paid !

Oh, and Terry, Even if you buy a self produced CD, the coprights are still valid, royalites should still be paid. Mechanical License fee's still need to be paid to be legit, which is appropriate.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 12 Oct 2006 2:15 am

If thise law were absolutely enforced country wide, then I might say it works.
But it is TOTALLY sporadic, some place never see the collection tout,
and others get nailed to the wall for one song.

Yeah $5 a day seems reasonable,
but it WILL come outta the BANDS END

In ALL the gigs I have played in the USA
and Europe and Asia,
only 4 times have I EVER seen the rights people coming in for their fees.
Or documentation being filled out.
And that was because radio was involved.