Music loudness

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 17 Apr 2006 8:22 am

I know this has been talked about before, but you guys are right on everyone being too loud! Last weekend I got a chance to go out to hear a couple different bands. at two different places. Both were too loud. Now, it s seems to me that if you can't hear or talk to the person next to you without screaming, you should have them turn down. And why no one else notices is beyond me. Very unenjoyable. Can some of you elaborate? J.C.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Apr 2006 9:19 am

People shouldn't talk at concerts. It distracts the musicians.

I remember seeing Segovia, long ago. He insisted on absolute silence in the room before he would play a note. It was a big hall, and he was not miked. He managed to fill the room with music from one guitar. An unforgettable concert!

If people showed more respect for musicians, we wouldn't have to play so loudly.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b2005.gif" width="78 height="78">Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
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Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 17 Apr 2006 9:26 am

Anything over 85 dB is in the hearing damage range. Especially in the 3000 to 5000 hertz range. In an industrial setting, employess gotta wear hearing protection at this point. A sound pressure level meter is not your run of the mill pocket toy, but it'd be interesting to see what are the results at the different venues. If you gotta scream to be heard, it's definitely into the nasty region.

From my days of DJ'ing in a club, I must say there is a subconcious competition between the sound or band, and the customers, that can cause the sound level to creep up. When customers compete with the music to be heard, the "background rumble" can subconciously reinforce the feeling that the music is being enjoyed. An equilibrium of competing sounds is reached, band versus crowd.
The flipside is a real downer, when the customers are absolutely silent (except in a concert hall maybe) the band gets real negative feedback.
Over the course of a few hours, this equilibrium point moves upward.[This message was edited by Ray Minich on 17 April 2006 at 11:47 AM.]

Burr Oxley · Post by **Burr Oxley** » 17 Apr 2006 10:08 am

I regularly attend two very well-run Steel Guitar Jams in the upper Midwest: The Northeast Iowa Jam in Waterloo, and the "Udder Jam" in Wisconsin Rapids. The musicians are excellent and the audiences seem reasonably respectful of the musicians.

That said, the volume level of the music seems to creep up over the course of a day, and those little spongy in-the-ear hearing protectors get more and more desirable as the day wears on. Eventually by about late afternoon the vocalists can barely be heard intelligibly above the volume of the players. Maybe this is the fault of the sound people, but whoever is at fault reduces the listening enjoyment for the customers.

Should the audience show respect for the musicians by keeping it down to a dull roar? ABSOLUTELY! But they're at the event to have a good time, and they have a right to talk at a reasonable level.

Unfortunately it ends up seeming to be a "shouting match" between the audience and the performers. And in the end, the musicians feel dissed and the listeners feel half-deafened. Nobody wins!

To me, when a vocalist can't be heard satisfactorily over the level of the band, the band is just too damned loud, regardless of their rationale for the excessive volume.

Sorry to disagree with you, b0b, but that's the way I feel. [This message was edited by Burr Oxley on 17 April 2006 at 11:08 AM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 17 Apr 2006 10:51 am

what ?

Many years back we were playing a gig at the U of MA in Amherst..

luck would have it Laura Nero was doing a solo show the same night after we played..different Hall though..

We ran all the way over to the Hall and sat up pretty close..

She came out, sat at the Piano. drank some Wine..started singing..
a few folks were talking..very low..
She stopped singing and says..

"A little respect "..

the whole Hall goes totally silent..

She starts singing again..

there ya have it...

and anyway, I have to play loud..otherwise why would I bring two amps ?

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 17 April 2006 at 11:56 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 17 Apr 2006 11:30 am

I saw a David Grisman show here in St. Louis once, and the crowd was so yappy that David had to stop the show and say:

"I think y'all should just shut the f##k up. We don't have any plugs up here, just acoustic instruments and mic's. We can't get any louder than this. You paid to hear this music right?"

I think that music in bars has confused people into thinking that any music event is just a social gathering and that the music is just for atmosphere. People really don't respect the musicians, the interested listeners, or the music as they used to. Now at a steel show or an all-day festival, it's understandable that people will be socializing. But they should go somewhere in the back or away from the music to have conversation. A little whispering is fine when up close. Really I think the respect should be for the serious listener who is there to hear music and not the people next to them. Music has gotten too loud, both on stage and in the house. You add alcohol to the mix and things get even louder, the music and the yapping. It's a vicious circle. I think we should all bring squirtguns to shoot at the noisy people, including the band or even the soundman if it becomes necessary....

I've even thought of mounting a water turret under my steel connected to an "extra" pedal. I just aim and squeeze the pedal and somebody's gettin wet.

Brad

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 17 Apr 2006 11:46 am

The last time I went to the House of Blues, was to see Emmy Lou Harris. I was standing behind the cordoned-off area for the music industry people. These arrogant morons couldn't stop talking about what they've bought and what they were going to buy and going to get. I didn't have a machine-gun, so I moved away from them.[This message was edited by chas smith on 17 April 2006 at 12:47 PM.]

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 17 Apr 2006 12:08 pm

"....... You paid to hear this music right?"

I've made it a rule to never play at places where it cost less than the price of 2-3 beers to attend (and beer is expensive in Norway), hoping it will keep the drunken 'yappetiyapp'ers out of there.
So I don't do many gigs these days......

Steinar

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"Play to express, not to impress"
www.gregertsen.com
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Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 17 Apr 2006 12:27 pm

Whn a nobleman annoyed Franz Liszt by talking during the recital, Liszt stopped in the middle of a piece and announced "Music herself should be silent while the great man speaks."

Mark Edwards · Post by **Mark Edwards** » 17 Apr 2006 12:56 pm

I played a gig with a band I'd never played with some 3-4 weeks ago on a Friday night. These guys were so loud, it took until about noon Saturday before I could hear clearly again. My bride usually goes to all my gigs with me, and she said it was so loud she left halfway through the gig.

This was uncalled for, the place we were playing was about as wide as a double wide mobile home and about 75 yards long. Still don't understand why they had to play so loud, it seems when it gets to that point everyone in the band is trying to outdo everyone else by turning up.

I also go see one of my favorite Honky Tonk bands occasionally, and they usually play at the same venue, they have a great following, and when it gets too loud, someone will let them know (ususally when they have had to much to drink). But these guys have a great time playing, and give each other the courtesy to be heard.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Apr 2006 1:09 pm

I think this is another case of "When in Rome ...". There's a big difference between a listening audience and a noisy honkytonk crowd. I think it's often unrealistic to expect that nobody in a crowded neighborhood bar is going to talk. Similarly, it is extremely rude to yack loudly in the middle of a concert hall.

Several years back, Ryan Adams did a solo gig in a small bar here which is famous for a lot of gabby patrons. I've played there for eons, and this is just part of the package. He got real huffy in the middle of the set and left the stage. I can see both sides - I get very annoyed with patrons who just yack over a quiet performer who I specifically came to see. But the truth is, that is just the kind of place this is - grad students socializing, clinking bottles all over the place, and so on. Many of them weren't there specifically to see Ryan, and paid the cover for the privilege of going to their usual watering hole to yack about grad school hell, what they're gonna do this weekend, and so on.

To the original question - IMO, noisy crowds are far from the only reason bands are too loud. Many bands are too %&$# loud - well - just because they're too %&$# loud. They have a drummer that isn't happy unless he breaks 5 sticks a night and starts his attack on the drum head from above his head. Or a lead guitar player who insists that he needs two hundred-watt-amps cranked to the limit to get "his tone". We've discussed this plenty. All my opinions, of course.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 17 Apr 2006 4:30 pm

Regarding audience noise and attention, add this conundrum to the equation:

You make the most money playing music for the people who care the least about it.

-John

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www.ottawajazz.com

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 17 Apr 2006 9:36 pm

Or as Nat King Cole once said,” They’re not there for you!" It's the other way around. Having said all that, I wish they would be quiet and Listen.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 17 Apr 2006 9:40 pm

Whaaaaaaaaat?

John Cox · Post by **John Cox** » 18 Apr 2006 9:17 am

Bob, this one place wasn't a concert. It was a bar. Big difference down here.

The ohter club, O.K. mabey they really wanted us to hear them. They don't schedule regular dances there, and I should have realized being in a college town the music was going to be as so loud. One can't help but think that there's a consequence to all this. The hearing aid business will problably be booming before long.

J.C.

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 18 Apr 2006 11:02 am

Try this on for size. We recently had an occasion when a table of 4, 2 men, 2women were really interrupting the songs with loud talk, boos, etc. Our band leader took an old Audio Tech wireless mike out to the table and told the crowd this mike was wired to channel 24 of the board, and when the crowd wanted to hear from that table they were to shout "CHANNEL 24". Then between 3 or 4 songs he would ask the crowd if they wanted to hear from Channel 24. Of course there were boos and "no's" screamed from every corner of the dance hall. The foursome finally got up and left. Case Closed as Archie Bunker would say.

Phred

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"From Truth, Justice is Born"--Quanah Parker-1904

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 26 Apr 2006 9:15 am

That is BRILLIANT, Fred, I'll remember that for future use....

I worked a show with Tony Bennett and a simple piano trio a few years back at Portland's 3000+ seat Civic Auditorium. As they will do, that crowd was chattering away throughout the show and finally Tony stopped and asked us to turn the entire sound system off, monitors included.

It took a few minutes for the crowd to get it and shut their mouths, once they started listening we could hear everything from the stage perfectly.

I know that I'm not the only one here who started playing before mic'ed drums, stage monitors and 24 channel mixers were even dreamed of. As a sound mixer for some pretty big and some very loud acts over the years, I always figured that the kick drum and bass could flap my pants legs as long as the high end wasn't too loud to comfortably talk over.

c c johnson · Post by **c c johnson** » 26 Apr 2006 10:35 am

Have any of you heard Jerry Byrd anywhere including Scottys convention? When Jerry walks on there is always a standing 0. While he is tuning there is very little quiet conversation. When he starts to play its like a church or a wake.Standing 0 after every song and then silence. Not even a soul moving around. All eyes and ears on Jerry. For those of you who never saw Jerry at Scottys, try to imagine that huge hall quiet as a cathedral. It'll grab ya. CC

Jack Latimer · Post by **Jack Latimer** » 26 Apr 2006 10:51 am

I too have played in bands that just got too loud. It actually got to the point where the lead quitar player would be so loud people in the audience would cover their ears. After too many gigs with my ears ringing, and not being able to convince the lead player that we were getting too loud (I now think it was because he couldn't hear me anyway), I decided to packed it in with the band. Two other members of that same band joined me in our latest band and we all have a common objective to keep our volume for the audience at what has been explained to us by many as an enjoyable level. We contstantly are complimented on our overall sound and we often receive comments like "it's so nice to hear a band that knows how to set the volume." This fact alone has got us many jobs. I realize that some musicians just need to feel the music and volume does it for them, but ear buds can now accomplish that so that the musicians ears can be left ringing instead of the audience or other band members. I still at times get a little ringing in my ears some nights, but at least that's a warning to me that my ear buds were too hot and the audience didn't have to suffer.

Don Walworth · Post by **Don Walworth** » 26 Apr 2006 11:08 am

Reminds me of our grand daughters graduation party from college. Her boy friends brother had a band and was to play at the party. Band was all set up in the back yard --- tuned up some ---- and started to jam! Man, that was way cool!! This old man was really enjoying the music --- folks inside the house came outside when the music started. All eyes on the musicians. Then they turned up the amps!! The police came within 30 minutes and shut the band down.

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Don

West Coast Double 8 Nashville 112

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 26 Apr 2006 9:34 pm

Do a Google search on "temporary threshold shift"; it will explain a lot of stuff-like why do guitar players always turn up 5 or 6 tunes into the gig.

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MSA Millennium D10, Acoustic Image Clarus SL-R, Marrs 1x15

Steve Alcott · Post by **Steve Alcott** » 26 Apr 2006 10:14 pm

Do a Google search on "Temporary threshold shift"-it explains a lot of volume related issues.

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 27 Apr 2006 5:45 am

I guess one way to look at it if the crowd is more into conversation than listening, then the band must have given them that dreaded "first impression", BORING. Or typical loud and just plain nothing that stands out. I have had musicians that it seemed painted two more numbers on their amps to get it up to 12 maybe higher. A wise great picker once told me "it ain't always what you play that makes you good, Its what you learn not to play. I guess I still wished I learned "How" to play.

But thanks to some really great musicians I never had too.

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Smiley 23-9 Crank&pull&push pro model Deluxe with auto voice tuner and string changer.500ft.roll.