Guys, check out these guitars.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 2 Mar 2006 12:38 am

First of all, I do not believe anything I read on harmonycentral. Too many shills and 16-year old wannabes. The only way for me to tell if a guitar is worth me spending my money on, is for me to play it. I did that with PRS in the 80's, worst guitar I've ever owned.
NO WHERE in any of my posts did I say, or imply, that I did not like your guitars. My objection is that you represent the company, and ONLY after numerous posts, do you admit to having modified ALL the Raven guitars you had been GIVEN, or sold at cost, in order to make them playable! You talk about all your guitars. I've probably owned a couple hundred guitars, from Stella to Martins, in over 40 years of playing. I have learned to accept no one else's opinion regarding the quality, or tone, of ANY instrument. But, for instance, your saying that ALL of your Raven guitars needed fretwork makes them questionable, to me.
There are a lot of fine musical instruments being made overseas. I own three Fender Telecasters. One made in Mexico, one's made in Japan, and the third, the newest, is made in the USA. The neck on the American feels better than the other two--PERIOD.
And you say that EVERYBODY who's played one of these guitars loves 'em? You mean, EVERY musician you know AGREES on something? That one ain't gonna wash, either.
As far as the intonated nut, I won't argue that point. I've discussed it with Geoff Stelling, Dan Lashbrook, and a couple of other proponents. I feel that intonation must be corrected at the bridge, not the nut---But THAT'S not on-topic---UNLESS you believe the intonation on these guitars you're shilling for is SO bad, that you'll do ANYTHING to try and correct it.
I'll stand by any and everything I've posted. There are a lot of guys on here who get gear at cost, or for free. They're either touring pros, or their session work makes them influential when a guy like me wants a new piece of gear. But I've not seen a post by ANY of these guys saing"_____'s guitars and amps are GREAT, if you change a bunch of parts, overhaul them, and throw everything but the kitchen sink at 'em!"
And NOBODY I know has bought a particular amp or guitar simply because it's CHEAPER, and they're SCARED their GOOD stuff might get damaged if it's taken out. Are you beginning to understand, now?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 2 Mar 2006 5:38 am

Stephen, why are you so angry?

You insinuate that the guitars have unpalatable necks and need major work in order to be played. Not so. I am very particular about the actions on my guitars. I have had the frets dressed on ALL of them. (Except the Gretsch which is 100% original.) You insinuate that the stock pickups are no good and need to be changed. Again, not so. I have swapped pickups on many of my instruments, including my steel, (as have others here.) BTW The guitar I played at Mesa during Jim Cohen's set comes with optional Seymour Duncan pickups, which of course I got.

Your posts imply that there is something wrong with the guitars, and that I've been less than honest about them. Again, this is not the case. The fact that there are a couple of people on this forum here who bought them and are happy with them, coupled with the overwhelming number of positive reviews they get on Harmony Central should tell you that. (And yes, HC has a lot of 14 year old kids who think that music was invented by Jimi Hendrix, and that has to be taken into consideration. But when 30 or 40 people all say they like a particular guitar and nobody puts it down, they can't all be wrong.)

You insinuate that I put the Earvana nuts on the guitars because they don't intonate properly. Again, you're mistaken. These guitars intonate as well as any other brand.

Intonated nuts do not take the place of intonated bridges, rather they work together. As I mentioned, I have them on ALL my guitars (except the Gretsch.) Perhaps you ought to check them out for yourself and see how they work, how WELL they work, before you say anything else.

If you feel that you need a $3,000 guitar in order to play in a bar, that's fine. I feel that people in the audience are more concerned with the quality of the performance than with the brand name on the headstock.

Before I close thus post, I want to point out 2 things I mentioned earlier. 1- I do not work for this company and have no financial interest in it. The owner is a personal friend. 2- The reason these guitars are so inexpensive is that the guy has them made in Korea, shipped to his home where he stores them in his garage (thus saving the cost of storage) and sells them himself directly to his customers similar to the way many steel manufacturers do. If these guitars wen through the normal retail chain, they would cost far more.

This is a GOOD thing. These are professional quality guitars, that don't cost an arm and a leg. As far as I'm concerned, they are a Godsend to guitarists who can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on an instrument.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Mar 2006 6:14 am

I get equipment from Fender but don't "advertise" for them under the guise of a "music" thread. I sorta see where Steve is coming from. It kind of appears lik free advertising, and that Mike has some financial connection. That may no be the case, but then it's a perception that might need clarifying.

Harvey Reams · Post by **Harvey Reams** » 2 Mar 2006 7:53 am

Mike, thanks for the info...I have reached the point where I don't use my nicer guitars ( PRS, Gibsons, Heritage, Martins etc. ) anymore, to many battle scars. I have had many nights of drunks and even band mates during setting up there own eq. knock over my guitar and it goes flying across the stage. Sometimes people will make there way to the stage while the band is on break to look at your set-up and try out the guitar while they're there...

I have never heard of the Earvana intonated nut system, so I checked out there web site, looks pretty nice, think I might give it a try. I did know about the buzz feiten system although I have never tried it.
I do use a Brian Moore from time to time, its a good work horse. Once again, thanks for the info and I think I might check out one of the Raven West guitars.
HR

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 2 Mar 2006 8:10 am

Mike, I am NOT angry. I have said nothing in any of my posts showing anger on my part. For you to infer ANY anger on my part is simply wrong.
You say you are not employed by the company, and I'll accept that. But the owner is your friend, and has given you at least one guitar, and sold you at least six more at cost--I suppose, as compensation for your services as a consultant, and possibly, for your influence here and at steel shows? Makes you an unpaid rep, I guess. And an individualized setup is part of ANY new guitar purchase. I like my action a little on the high side, so I correct that. No sweat. But I would not, under ANY circumstances, buy a new guitar that needed frets dressed, or pickups replaced, to make them acceptable to me. Nor would I feel comfortable recommending those guitars to my friends. reminds me of some low-line guitars that came out several years ago--I'd hear guys say, "Yeah, good guitar. I put a ne bridge on it, changed pickups, changed tuners, and now it sounds as good as my old guitar." You see the point I'm trying to make, Mike?
You keep saying that I need to try the intonated nut, BTW. I HAVE, and my position remains the same. After a string is fretted, or capoed, the nut is nothing more than a string retainer.
And as far as carrying a 3000.00 guitar to a gig, I'd do it in a heartbeat, if the gig required it, and if I owned any 3000 dollar guitars! As I said, I owe my best to the audience who's paying my bills. That means playing an instrument I feel comfortable playing, one I can depend on. Doesn't have to be expensive. I enjoy playing some rock gigs on my $500 Epiphone Firebird. But I'm not gonna take a gig where I think that Firebird, OR my Gibson Les Paul, are gonna get destroyed, or ripped off.
By the way, did you get your new MSA yet???

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 2 Mar 2006 8:58 am

This is deteriorating into a urinating contest by people who appear to have a personal ax to grind, and I refuse to play that game any further.

The guitars speak for themselves. If amybody wants or needs a professional quality instrument at an affordable price, do yourself a favor and check them out.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 2 Mar 2006 11:59 am

Mike, I have no personal ax to grind with you, or anybody else. I hope you enjoy the guitars you're getting, I REALLY do. But I enjoy mine, and I don't have to fix 'em before I can play 'em---But I guess you really DO get what you pay for.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Mar 2006 2:49 pm

Mike, I made my post about clarification without noting the very post above it clarifying your non-financial interest. Sorry.

As far as the guitars, they DO sound interesting, but sounds like a lot of setup is required to get them in shape. That seems consistent with most of the Korean guitars I've seen at NAMM - the *look* right, *feel* almost right...but don't play right until fretwork is done. That, to me, is a big issue - IMO guitars should come from the factory with decent fretwork. But then again, for the price, you can't argue much.

I guess the real question would be how are these things out-of-the-box for the budget-buyer who is NOT going to tweak his guitars?

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 2 Mar 2006 3:24 pm

There are very few inexpensive guitars that are perfectly set up. I've owned many cheap and expensive in my 45 yrs. of playing. There have only been a couple that I haven't messed with, the one I've done the least to is my $350 NV Tele. I'd think nothing about replacing any part of a $400 guitar.
A guitar doesn't know what brand it is, or how much it costs. Thanks M.P. for showing us these guitars. JP

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 2 Mar 2006 4:30 pm

Jim Sliff, your apology is duly noted and accepted (as I hope mine to you, which is posted in the feedback section, is also.)

The restaurant where we hold the L.A. steel jam is currently closed for remodeling, but is scheduled to re-open next week, at which time I'll be talking to the owner about setting the date. Probably the 3rd or 4th weekend in April. I'll bring a couple of the guitars and let you see them for yourself. That is if you're willing to attend and sit through an afternoon of country steel playing. (You really should. You might learn somthing.)

The fellow who owns the company just gave me a K2 590 like the one pictured. (note- the K2 series are the budget line- this guitar sells for $269.) I will make it a point NOT to have any work done on this guitar prior to the jam, so you (and everybody else) can see and feel what it is like right out of the box.

Webb Kline · Post by **Webb Kline** » 2 Mar 2006 6:46 pm

Boy, I'm glad I'm not so hard to please. If I walk into a music store and find a new or used guitar that I really have chemistry with and I can make a fair deal, I usually bring it home. I don't care where it's made or what it is.

My all time favorite guitar is an old Epi Joe Pass. Stock pickups. Stock everything else to my knowledge. It's just like my wife. We're a perfect fit. I've had more compliments on the tone of that guitar than with anyone I've ever owned. My wife bought it for me without even having me try it out based on my friend's approval. Maybe its the love that went into the purchase that helps; I don't know for sure. But, it just flat out works for me. No, it's not a fast neck like my Strat or Tele, but, I can play more tastefully on it than anything I've ever owned.

I ususally have to make adjustments to every guitar after I've played it a while. I don't see what the big deal is.

Frankly, those Ravenwests are beautiful looking guitars. I've kinda had tha hankering for a thinline hollow or semi hollow body. I might just try one on.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Mar 2006 7:43 pm

Mike - keep me posted, and if I can make it I will. I'm not up-to-speed on steel, but might bring a Tele and/or bass and play on a few tunes until my hand goes south, if that's OK. Might bring the 400 just for show-and-tell...

Didn't know the apology was to me since it wasn't addressed, but duly accepted. We're good.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 March 2006 at 07:46 PM.]

Per Berner · Post by **Per Berner** » 5 Mar 2006 5:04 am

Re intonated nuts: If you use a capo or if you're playing barre chords, they can make no difference at all, so Stephen's right. But if you play in the open position, mixing fretted and unfretted strings, of course they affect intonation. So Mike is also right. Fight over.

Re cheap guitars needing fretwork: I just bought a gorgeous, really good sounding, oil finish mahogany body/mahogany set neck tele with a maple fretboard for less than $200. The frets are rough and not flush with the neck profile, otherwise it's flawless.

But my $3,800 Gibson J 200 also arrived with unpolished frets, rough file marks all over the fretboard, a too narrow bridge saddle and a badly filed nut (plastic!)

On a sub 200 dollar guitar, I don't mind an hour or two in the workshop - when done, I have a GREAT player for hardly any money at all. But when I pay so much it hurts, flaws are not acceptable.

------------------
´75 Emmons p/p D10 8+4, '96 Emmons Legrande II D10 8+5, ca '72 AWH Custom D10 8+3, Peavey Nashville 1000

Doug Earnest · Post by **Doug Earnest** » 5 Mar 2006 8:25 am

I'm curious as to the quilted, flamed, or whatever type of figured woods are used on these and other low priced instruments being sold. Are they a thin veneer, a photo finish, or are they indeed a thick piece of gorgeous wood? In other words, a real Les Paul or PRS has something like a 1/2" thick piece of solid figured wood glued to a mahogany back. Are these import guitars really made this way?? I'm certainly not saying they aren't, I just don't see how they can have that configuration and be priced so low even if they were using slave labor (which I am not saying they do). Does anyone here have the straight story on this?

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Mar 2006 8:36 am

Doug, the maple caps are 1/8 inch veneers. Unlike some other Asian imports, they are not photographs, but neither are they the 12 inch thick pieces like Gibson uses.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Mar 2006 9:00 am

I think the subject of intonated nuts deserves it's own thread.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 5 Mar 2006 10:27 am

BTW, and if competing with import guitars is going to be what it takes to get "our" guitar industry going again, then that's what it will take.

At this point, I guess our only real quest is to see who can beat who with prices for importing them.

I'm going down right now to Portland Music and get a SquierII Telecaster™ with a wide U neck that's well within specs, two P90s, no fret boogers or flat spots, (and a nut that I might replace with a bone one) for 200 Bucks.

I could, like the last two "Under $200" Squiers take it down to the local Luthiers', "The Twelfth Fret" for "fret crowning/setup" etc, but they'd tell me the same thing. They don't need it, go play them for a couple years, and then maybe they would have something to do.

If the guy that made them ever gets out of the Red Chinese Communist prison he's in, I hope he comes over here and spreads his QC ability and work ethic around. * Or her, I guess)

I did check out the website, and I'm sure they're good guitars, but pricewise, I see no need to move from Fender/Squier.

I'm a "fender/squier guy" anyhow.

Good luck MP.

EJL

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Mar 2006 1:00 pm

Ain't nothing wrong with Squires. I have a squire Tele that i converted to a mandocello. I call it "The Mandocellocaster."

You can see a picture of it here.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?s=81b5a5092c5df2703d20b6be5c7e2367;act=ST;f=12;t=22483;hl=mandocellocaster

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 5 Mar 2006 1:56 pm

I have a Godin Freeway Classic, HSH, with a maple veneer. I added a Seymour Duncan cool rails in the middle position to balance the outputs. Total price including a great gig bag is(B4 the duncan) was $350!. This guitar is made in Canada and the USA, and sounds and plays as good as any I've owned. The only setup I've done is file lightly on the fret ends, they stuck out a little. The veneer does not add or subtract from the tone. It is a great guitar at a great price. They are out there to find. JP

Al Vescovo · Post by **Al Vescovo** » 6 Mar 2006 10:40 am

On my guitar gigs, I've mostly played my 1956 Gibson Archtop L7C. A couple of years ago I had a Ervana nut put on and the open string chords are in as close to perfect tune as can be. No complaints. I recently bought a Korean guitar called a New York made by Peerless. It's a archtop acoustic with a natural spruce top and maple back and sides. Only $400. I had the strings lowered, a floating pick up installed. It sounds and plays beautifully. Great acoustic sound and great electric jazz sound. On my gigs, the Peerless is replacing the Gibson, except in certian situations. As it stands now,I don't need the Ervana on the Peerless, as it seems to play well in tune. I agree with Perlowin. Some guitars need customizing to make them
personal. Most of my instruments have been
customized. I'm not always comfortable playing other peoples instruments. I'd rather play my own. [This message was edited by Al Vescovo on 06 March 2006 at 10:44 AM.]