A Thousand Dollar Question

Jeff Lucas · Post by **Jeff Lucas** » 16 Feb 2004 6:06 pm

First of all, I'd like to say hello and thank you to you all. I've been a 'voyeur' on the Forum for quite some time and have learned so very much. The Forum has helped me immensely on my path of playing and learning the "lap" steel guitar.

Though I've only been playing a few months, it seems like the instrument and I were made for each other. I feel like every day I can learn and apply something new, or discover a musical gesture or cadence from one of my heroes. Right now I play the only steel I've ever owned, an Alamo Embassy (S-6). I picked it out of a few other Alamos and Supros and the guitar just sings. Rich, chimey, and stingy all when and where you need it. And it's all (p.u., too) made in San Antone, Texas, where I grew up! I play it through a plain ol' Fender Blues Jr. with just a touch of reverb. Nothing else; no volume pedal, nothing. I know from reading these posts that Alamos are a bit of a mystery and/or not highly regarded and I'm thinking what *I* consider to be a "great tone, feel, etc." might be far below what I could/should expect from a more regarded instrument.

Here's the question: I'm about ready to REALLY delve into the instrument. To put all my musical energy (after songwriting and singing) into learning and playing everything I can on the steel. I figure I have about $1000 to spend on an instrument. To get the most out of the steel I figure I should go for 7 or 8 strings? Maybe even a 2 neck console? I play C6 now but I would like to explore other tunings. The sound I really, really love is Joaquin Murphey's on his Spade Cooley work and Curley Chalker's Lefty Frizzell work... and finally (I don't have my CD with me) but whoever played steel on Merle Haggard's "Roots Volume 1"... that sound, too.

Any suggestions as to what steel I should apply that $1000 towards? I don't know what kind of guitar any of those three play and haven't had alot of experience with other steels to be able to listen to a song and go, "Oh, I love that '54 Stringmaster sound!" Hopefully, someone can help point me in the right direction. The music I play is versed in honky-tonk, western, etc. but *isn't* exactly that... but that's still the sound, sound, sound I want in a solid more versatile guitar.

Sorry so long-winded on my first post. I'll keep it down from now on

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 16 Feb 2004 6:23 pm

If you're going to delve, I doubt you'd go wrong with a D8.

If you're going to get a D8, I doubt you'd go wrong with a Fender Stringmaster.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 16 Feb 2004 6:43 pm

Dittos Howard,

carl

A Better Way

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 16 Feb 2004 7:12 pm

That's Merle's long time pedal steel player Norm Hamlett doin a fabulous job of playin' the plain old steel guitar with no pedals on it. I thought maybe it wasn't him when I first heard it but it was!!! Double 8 is a great way to notch it up from Single 6.BW

Jeff Lucas · Post by **Jeff Lucas** » 16 Feb 2004 11:46 pm

Thanks for the replies, guys!

Hmmm... the longer scale Stringmasters of the early 50s, or...? I ran across this:
http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx5.htm

3 necks seem a little daunting! But it seems a good price?

I'm sure I could do some digging on here to find out, but what steel was Joaquin Murphey's mainstay during his Spade Cooley time?

And last: I just pulled out my "Ernest Tubb Early Hits of 'The Texas Troubadour'", having finally got the guts to *really* listen (i.e. and reflect on the steel guitar as I know it from an "hands-on" perspective) to Jerry Byrd's work... I was literally almost in tears. For just one instance, his backing work *alone* on "So Round, So Firm, So Fully Packed" is amazing, let alone his break. And "Have You Ever Been Lonely".... I'm just speechless. I love it when Tubb goes, "Awww... Jerry Byrd, now..." as JB goes into his solo. Man, I'd like to have a tab of that solo!

For those interested, or don't know-- and forgive me for preaching to the converted-- there's several JB cuts on this CD:

1. So Round, So Full, So Fully Packed
2. Don't Look Now But Your Broken Heart Is Showing
3.Let's Say Goodbye Like We Said Hello
4.Forever Is Ending Today
5. Have You Ever Been Lonely

Other great steel players gracing this fine CD [Living Era CD AJA 5322]:

Kemo Head, Wayne Fleming, Don Davis, Speedy West, Dickie Harris, and Don Helms.

Signing off... back to slant practice.

JLL

[This message was edited by Jeff Lucas on 16 February 2004 at 11:54 PM.][This message was edited by Jeff Lucas on 16 February 2004 at 11:55 PM.]

Jussi Huhtakangas · Post by **Jussi Huhtakangas** » 17 Feb 2004 12:44 am

Jeff, Joaquin was playing a couple of different Bigsbys with Spade and Tex Williams. Unfortunately, you won't be lucky enough to find one of those for $1000. But like others here have said, you can't go wrong with D8 Fenders. Gibson Console Grandes are fine too and the 50's Rickenbacker Consoles ( my favorite out of that trio and probably the closest sounding to a Bigsby ). All these should fall well into your price category and have the sound you're looking for.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 17 Feb 2004 2:24 am

I saw a Console Grand for $1000 this time last year, but that Fender D8 would be cool too.

Tim Whitlock · Post by **Tim Whitlock** » 17 Feb 2004 6:09 am

Jeff - I clicked the link you gave and found this item:

121. FENDER, Stringmaster, 1954, blond finish, 3 8-string necks with chrome-covered pickups, 26"scale lengths, very good plus condition, original tweed hard case, without legs (leg sockets present), (Our #25551) $1,000.

If this is one you are considering, I wouldn't be daunted by the three necks. I found that having the third neck was great for experimenting with tunings. Brad's Pages of Steel has tons of tunings that will keep you busy for hours. The price is good for this item BUT it has no legs. These might be difficult to find as they are no longer being made. You might end up having to fit the guitar with new leg sockets for modern legs. It would be a shame to have to do that to an otherwise original instrument. If you got lucky you might someday find legs on e-bay. If you can get around this problem, you will love having a T8 Stringmaster.

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Tim Whitlock
'58 Fender 1000, '56 Fender Stringmaster, '65 Twin Reissue, Niomi lap steel, old Magnatone tube amp.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 17 Feb 2004 9:44 am

Jeff,

You have no idea what nostalgia you brought to me when you mentioned Jerry Byrd's playing on ET's "Have You Ever Been Lonely". I have loved that recording since the day I first heard it. Sadly that recording is rarely heard and almost impossible to find with Jerry Byrd doing the back up. ET recorded it later and it is just not the same. That is the one that is heard when it is played, sadly.

Jerry does a lick-run in this original recording that just sends me into outerspace. It is though he never is going to run out of notes. And sooooo beautifully done. Plus his "break" is awesome.
For those who understand the term "moan" when it comes to a Rickenbacher bakelite, that moan rings loud and clear on this recording.

Speaking of JB and these recordings, this was during the time when many stars were using Jerry on their recordings. And one of these stars was Hank Williams. If you have not heard Jerry backing HW; and based on your comments about him backing ET; please, please try to get a hold of some of HW's early hits that used JB.

One of HW's classics is "I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry". In this recording, Jerry outdoes himself again with his mastery of touch and tone; and his unprecedented wizardry.

I have never said the following on this forum. But I would be less than candid if I did not say, that I was sad when HW changed steel players after Jerry. I realize the whole world loves Don Helms. I respect that. But I was never a fan of that type of playing. Still 'aint'. I respect his playing and honor that sooooooo many love it. But to me, Jerry's smooth incredible, and unbelievable choice of phrasing suited HW's voice better.

But to each his own,

carl

A Better Way

Jeff Lucas · Post by **Jeff Lucas** » 17 Feb 2004 10:08 am

Wow, Carl.... believe it or not I had no idea Jerry backed Hank up! Most of the HW recordings I have are sadly lacking in recording session information. I'm going back through all those discs now with a "new ear". I could tell that the steel players were different, but besides Don Helms I had no idea who was who! Thank you once again for enlightening me... this Forum is just Heaven sent.

On another note: I just located a 1951 Gibson Console Grande for $650. A bit road-worn, but according to the seller plays and sounds beautifully. Seems too good to pass up!?

--Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lucas on 17 February 2004 at 10:08 AM.]

Ron Whitfield · Post by **Ron Whitfield** » 17 Feb 2004 10:19 am

Jeff, if I were you, I'd get off the computer for a moment and take my $ to that store and get that triple neck Fender before someone beat me to it. From the info I read about it, you'll be very glad you did once you become more savvy towards fine steels.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 17 Feb 2004 12:57 pm

Jeff, the market prices for D- and T-8's seem to be steadily rising, although you should still be able to find a nice Stringmaster, Dual Pro, Custom, Console Grande or Consollette for well under $1000. (well, maybe not a stringmaster!) And later have a marketable guitar should you decide to trade up. Some perusion of past forum posts should show that all those guitars have their adherents and detractors, so you have to do some personal experimenting to find one that really grabs you. I happen to love Dual Pros, even though the pickups get in your way more than the stringmasters. Console Grandes have an incredibly hip Gibsony classy vibe, and a whole different sound. I got a consollette on ebay for under $500 that was literally unplayed, to the point where I just can't make myself take it out of the house. But that guitar doesn't do it for me playing wise like the Fenders. I would suggest that a double 8 may be all you need- it's nice to experiment but you'll probably make more progress working with just two tunings at first, and it's always easy to change one of your necks over.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com

Jeff Lucas · Post by **Jeff Lucas** » 17 Feb 2004 1:06 pm

Thanks for the input/info, Mark. I actually sent you an email earlier re: a Gibson Console Grande to the address on your store site. Looking forward to hearing from you!

Post by **Brad Bechtel** » 17 Feb 2004 4:06 pm

I'd agree with Mark. A check of eBay's completed auctions shows many Fender doubleneck steels with winning bids well under $1000.
Personally I would rather have a doubleneck than a single neck, just for weight considerations.
Where were you six months ago when I was selling my Dual Professional???

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Brad's Page of Steel
A web site devoted to acoustic & electric lap steel guitars

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 17 Feb 2004 8:49 pm

Him Jeff, sent you an email again, let me know if it doesn't show up... best of luck!