Perfect pitch....can it be taught?

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Nov 2005 9:06 pm

Well, Ron - that's a diplomatic 'post'!

I assure you I know exactly what it is; go back and re-read my post.

RR

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Nov 2005 10:36 pm

Ron that isn't neccesarily perfect pitch,
being able to nail a note from looking at the sheet music.
That IS seriously good sulfege technique, and very admirable. It seems your mom is blessed with a great ear and a 440 based pitch center.

Perfect pitch is not being able to tolerate ANYTHING
slightly off what your internal pitch center is.
Some lucky ones, are close to 440, OK,
but some are cursed with internally
believing only notes tuned close to
say 445 or 437 etc, are properly tuned.

So they SUFFER listening to anything not tuned "perfectly" to their pitch center.

I have worked in the studio with 2-3 perfect pitch debilitated individuals.... not fun.

I would like better pitch recognition,
but would NEVER want "perfect pitch".

It would instantly make playing blues,
or steel and aggravating excercise.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 18 November 2005 at 10:46 PM.]

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 20 Nov 2005 8:05 am

My Uncle Hugh in relief in the bottom of the ninth inning while playing for the Brooklyn Dodgers struck out Bobby Thompson with the bases loaded. I'd say that was a perfect pitch.

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Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 20 Nov 2005 11:12 am

I thought perfect pitch was the sound a banjo makes when it hits the bottom of a dumpster. It can only be enhanced if there is already a uke and an accordion in the bottom of the dumpster![This message was edited by Ken Fox on 20 November 2005 at 11:12 AM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Nov 2005 12:35 pm

Yes, as others have said, perfect pitch is a unique, but pretty much useless skill. Far more important is the ability to hear chord changes and recognize chord structures. That lets you know what the music is doing, and what you can do to both blend with and expand the composition you're playing. As Bobby said, there's some players who can't hear changes very well. These players have a terrible time learning to play music. It's a handicap that's kinda like a painter being color-blind.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Nov 2005 9:21 pm

Even a blind pig can find an acorn..

EJL

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 21 Nov 2005 1:35 am

PP = getting a piccolo in the toilet from 10 feet without hitting the rim.

The Jolo ham from southern Spain, is from pigs that ONLY eat acorns.

Now... how's that for topic drift.
The pigs don't care for perfect pitch,
just good winds to knock down more acorns.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 November 2005 at 07:35 AM.]

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 21 Nov 2005 8:30 pm

I remember as a kid, I was at a game one time and it was the 9th. . . . Oh never mind I really never was a big baseball fan anyway!

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Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 23 Nov 2005 2:28 am

I have just taken a look via the web at a list of people with perfect pitch. Here are just a few of the names. Andre Segovia,Oscar Peterson, Andre previn, Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Nat Cole, Michael Jackson, Bing Crosby, Marvin Hamlish,Jasha Heifitz, Miles Davis,Chopin, Mozart,Julie Andrews, Beethoven,leonard Bernstein. This suggests to me that it rather more than a circus trick, as someone suggested in an earlier post.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 23 Nov 2005 5:20 am

I tuned for Dave Brubeck once. The piano came in cold, and he announced to the orchestra that it was a little sharp, and would be back to pitch by performance time.

I measured middle A after rehearsal; it was 2 cents sharp.
If not perfect he had awfully good relative pitch.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Nov 2005 6:51 am

Bruce...

It wasn't me who said it was a 'circus trick', but I think your post illustrates that it's a gift that's shared by many with a high level of musical ability. I remember the story about Segovia demanding that the a/c be turned off in a concert hall, as the frequency of its hum was unacceptable to him.

I imagine that it has few real benefits in everyday professional situations, but is, perhaps, an indicator that someone who is possessed of this ability has an exceptionally fine 'ear'.

I bet Senor Segovia would have gone nuts if he'd had to deal with cabinet drop

!

RR

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 23 Nov 2005 9:37 am

Well, I have no clue if it can be taught.

But I know someone who claims to have it and I have no reason to doubt her.

The music director of our chuch band has a masters in music, played some concert piano when she was younger, and was a member of the San Francisco Opera for a number of years.

She also gives voice lessons (this has really helped my singing).

The reason I don't doubt it, is that we might try out a new song, but don't have a chord chart. At the beginnig of Thursday evening rehearsal, she will go into the next room, put on the cd, and reappear 4-5 minutes later with an accurate chord chart, without having the benefit of using the piano to help her figure it out.

Whether that is a potential definition of perfect pitch, or it has more to do with playing the piano since she was 6 (she is in her 40's) I can't answer-but it impresses the heck out of me!

And these aren't just 1-4-5 major chord songs-there are diminished chords, flatted 7ths, 11th chords-the whole nine yards.

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Mark
[This message was edited by Mark Eaton on 23 November 2005 at 09:40 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 23 Nov 2005 12:15 pm

Well circus trick or not, if this guy is raking in the scratch, I'd say he has

"a perfect pitch"...

[This message was edited by HowardR on 23 November 2005 at 12:17 PM.]

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 23 Nov 2005 1:15 pm

With respect, Mark, that ability you're describing is just a good ear and a solid grasp of relative pitch. I have no doubt that your church band's music director is an experienced and capable musician, but it doesn't follow that she has 'perfect pitch'.

It really isn't very common, while the ability to jot down a complex chord chart after one hearing could be ascribed to the majority of professional musicians.

RR
(Amended to say: Maybe I should have said 'professional-standard musicians'...)[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 23 November 2005 at 01:24 PM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 23 Nov 2005 1:38 pm

One advantage that the possession of perfect pitch confers on a skilled instrumentalist is the ability to memorise long and difficult pieces with ease. They seem to do it automatically, whether by just hearing a piece, or working from the score. They hear it, or they see it, and they've got it!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 23 Nov 2005 2:55 pm

Bruce, do you think that's necessarily related to perfect pitch? I've always thought of it as a separate ability, since I know people who do not have perfect pitch but who seem to have a great "auditory memory" and can memorize long passages, using relative pitch.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 23 Nov 2005 4:54 pm

Jim, you might call that phonographic memory. Mine seems to be mostly pornographic.[This message was edited by David Doggett on 23 November 2005 at 04:55 PM.]

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 23 Nov 2005 5:39 pm

Raking in the scratch is right- seems to be I've been seeing those 2 page color ads in magazines for about 20 years now...that's several $k a month just in advertising- so something is going perfectly there!

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Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 24 Nov 2005 1:51 am

well I have a very simple comment..

pitch can really only be discussed with musicians and singers that can recognize when they are OFF pitch..

You don't really TEACH them..you TELL them...now they have the presence of awareness...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 24 November 2005 at 01:52 AM.]

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 24 Nov 2005 2:00 am

Jim, certainly many musicians with only relative pitch can memorise, say, piano scores (I can) but the perfect pitch people do it so much more easily. Andre Previn, for instance, during the time he was performing as a piano soloist with leading symphony orchestras, could learn and perform complex modern compositions within a few days. Artur Rubenstein was reputed to be able to remember and reproduce almost everything he had ever heard. Perfect pitch itself is memory, the A that Mozart remembered was a different pitch to the A that Andre Previn remembers.
As for the original question,can it be taught,this thread so far has not produced any evidence that it can.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 24 Nov 2005 4:02 am

I'm not sure that the auto-playback facility is at all the same as perfect pitch, or even the same as the ability to memorize long written pieces? Mozart and Beethoven were famous for being able to play back anything instantly but it's hard to imagine that they were remembering them one pitch at a time.

Among modern guitar players, Steve Morse is known for this ability, as was Howard Roberts. It used to be considered a teachable skill, rather than some kind of "magic" or "gift." It still is a normally-taught aspect of playing music among Indian musicians, so I guess it has to do with how high you set the bar.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 24 Nov 2005 7:06 am

You mean, like, above the 15th fret?

Bruce Clarke · Post by **Bruce Clarke** » 24 Nov 2005 7:26 am

Memorising music has long been a part of the teaching, and learning, of Western music also. The perfect pitchers don't need to learn how, they just do it. It certainly has nothing to do with magic, to call it a gift is convenient, but maybe it would be more accurate to describe perfect pitch as a facility that is inborn?

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 24 Nov 2005 8:35 am

Artur Rubenstein was reputed to be able to remember and reproduce almost everything he had ever heard.

In his autobiography, Rubinstein says that he could glance once at a page of music, and recall the details of the image later. I guess that's what we call a "photographic memory", and he was able to play music while reading it in his mind's eye.

There is a story about young Mozart being taken to a church service where a secret musical service was performed, known only to the church musicians. When he got home, the 7 year old Wolfgang sat at the piano, and played the whole 40 minutes of for his father. I think it would be easier to repeat a 40 minute speech after one hearing.