Perfect pitch....can it be taught?

Tony Palmer · Post by **Tony Palmer** » 16 Nov 2005 12:23 pm

www.perfectpitch.com
Maybe you've seen ads for this before.
I certainly don't have perfect pitch (as in knowing a chord or note just by hearing it by itself) and have doubts it can be taught.
My son is thinking of buying this course.
Anyone know anything about it?

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 16 Nov 2005 12:49 pm

Why bother? Perfect pitch is just a circus trick.

Relative pitch is what a musician HAS to have. -GV

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 16 Nov 2005 12:55 pm

I believe the ear and the brain can be trained to recognize the particular 'identity' of each tone, can't really see why it shouldn't. I bought this course about 15 years ago but never really sat down and got into it, so after looking at it for a few months (which certainly did nothing to help my pitch!) I sold it.

That said,- I agree totally with what Greg says, having a good relative pitch is much more important in the everyday life of a working musician. Perfect pitch would be nice (and probably also not-so-nice in some situations), but it's not a must. Focus on training the relative pitch instead...

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 16 Nov 2005 1:19 pm

Can relative pitch be taught?

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 16 Nov 2005 1:40 pm

An old music teacher of mine claimed it could be faked, and in fact he faked it.

I have tried experiments along this line. For instance, I noticed that if I hum the note, it vibrates in a very unique way in my throat. By memorizing the exact feel of the vibration in my throat, I thought it might be possible to accurately determine what a note is by humming along. I never really took it further than that, but I imagine it could be done. In otherwords, instead of trying to figure out what the note is by sound, you figure it out by feel, which is much easier to do.

Brendan Dunn · Post by **Brendan Dunn** » 16 Nov 2005 2:00 pm

Would that be perfect pitch in ET or JI?

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Nov 2005 2:16 pm

Mr. Bovine asked earnestly:

Can relative pitch be taught?

That's actually the more interesting question, I think. I remember sitting in a Jeff Newman class where he asked everyone to make a number chart for a song that was playing. I was surprised by the number of people in the room who couldn't do it. Even with a very prominent leading bass line, they hadn't a clue as to which was the 1, 4 or 5 chord.

Jeff felt that relative pitch could be taught, and he spent much of his time teaching it. Myself, I learned more about teaching from his course than I learned about music. The way he communicated musical concepts was brilliant.

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Leon Grizzard · Post by **Leon Grizzard** » 16 Nov 2005 2:29 pm

I bought this perfect pitch course, and the idea is that the individual 12 tones have certain characteristics that you can hear and recognize with time. I have always thought that the note F# had a certain wang to it, and that Eb had a certain roundness, or softness, so maybe there is something to it. However, to work the course, it really takes two people. They say you have to do the course on your usual instrument, so you will not be confused by the timbre of a different instrument's sound. It is hard to play mystery notes on the guitar yourself, and even harder on a fretless instrument because of intonation. I was just talking about this with another player today, and he thought the same thing.

These same folks also do a relative pitch course, which I found more useful. You can just do it in your car when driving.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 16 Nov 2005 3:31 pm

Good point - relative pitch is all that really matters.

I've worked with a couple of music directors who had perfect pitch and they often cursed their 'gift', as anything even slightly off 440 could drive them crazy!

I don't have it, but I can tune my guitar without artificial aids and, when I check it against the tuner, I'm virtually spot-on. That isn't 'perfect pitch', but the result of nearly fifty years of repetitively doing it, and recognising when I've reached the correct note. I'm only capable of doing this on a guitar or a steel, though, where the timbre is familiar - it doesn't help me 'ID' a note on another instrument.

Relative pitch: I found the key to that within weeks of starting to play (in 1957!); without that, I fear a life in music would be unbearable...

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 16 November 2005 at 03:33 PM.]

Ken Fox · Post by **Ken Fox** » 16 Nov 2005 5:31 pm

http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer

This is an excellent interactive and free ear trainer, save yourself some bucks, this will do the trick for relative pitch and more!

Chris Lasher · Post by **Chris Lasher** » 16 Nov 2005 6:22 pm

Tony, your doubts are substantiated. Most scientific studies (the kind that get published in scientific, peer-reviewed journals, the ones like these) have shown perfect pitch is not a ubiquitously teachable skill. It is a talent that is cultivable in those who are born with it. You are born with the ability or without it. Don't sacrifice a large chunk of change to that perfect pitch program. I looked at it myself, when I was searching for an ear training program, and dismissed it, and I'm glad I did.

Hundreds of years of music conservatory pedagogy have demonstrated, time and time again, that relative pitch is a skill, not a talent, and it can be learned. Some pick it up faster than others. Just like playing steel, don't give in to the temptation to get discouraged or overconfident.

I am in engrossed in a novel means of relative-pitch eartraining by Bruce Arnold. You can find it on his site by going to http://muse-eek.com/books/books.html and looking under "Books For Ear Training". He explains in great detail why his method is different from traditional intervallic and melodic eartraining methods, why those older and commonplace methods aren't effective in realtime musical situations, and how his method focuses on ear training that will give useable bandstand skills. You can find this explanation, plus many explanations to common questions people ask before buying and while using his ear training series of books, at http://muse-eek.com/books/eartrng1/eartrngfaq.html .

I find the One-Note Eartraining Method books have really improved my ability to listen actively to music and to more quickly and accurately recreate what I hear from both the radio and in my head. I have also put in a lot of time with the series. One of the main reasons I love them is because of the CDs, which play the I-IV-V-I, then a random note, and then Bruce says aloud what the note is. You get instant feedback if you were correct or incorrect, and you don't have to write on or to look at a sheet of paper for the answer while doing it. It's the perfect way for me to make good use of my commute time to and from my day job.

But enough lauding. Look at it for yourself. Good luck on your pursuit of eartraining, if you decide to pursue it.

[This message was edited by Chris Lasher on 16 November 2005 at 06:32 PM.]

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 16 Nov 2005 9:03 pm

Neat site Ken, thanks.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Nov 2005 9:07 pm

Sure, perfect pitch can be taught. First, you grab the banjo by the neck...

(Well, somebody had to say it, didn't they??)

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 17 Nov 2005 3:38 am

I wondered when Mr. Cohen would jump in....good one!

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 17 Nov 2005 4:17 am

Perfect with A = 440, or A = 442? Which system do you use to name the microtones, the one that says there are 22 notes in an octave, or 72?* Of course you can teach people parlor tricks, you could probably learn how to knock over beer cans by shooting ping-pong balls out your butt if you practiced, but to what avail? I am in awe of the people who can (reportedly) hear a song once and play it back, or hear a symphonic movement or band arrangement once and sit down and write it out, but they had to have gotten that way by defining goals and figuring out how to attain them. If attaining perfect pitch serves a purpose worth the expenditure of time for your friend, by all means he should leap on it.

*(Both of these seem to reflect the opinions of musicologists needing book-fodder moreso than the musicians playing the stuff, by the way.)

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 17 Nov 2005 5:09 am

Given that 'A' has varied between 400 and 450 Hz, it seems academic.
Jeff was right about the importance of identifying one pitch relative to another; it's a skill that will take one far.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 17 Nov 2005 8:11 am

I can tune the 10 strings (E9th) without a meter, and I'm pretty darn close (as in close enough to start pickin'). But I need a meter or source for the starting E note.

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 17 Nov 2005 9:05 am

Here you may find a very good example for "The Perfect Pitch":
http://www.clevercartoon.com/johnny/

Horst

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 17 Nov 2005 9:17 am

Ray,

Every steel player should be able to tune his guitar by ear, provided there's no other racket going on that he has to compete with. THAT'S relative pitch --and it's good that you have it!

The guy with so-called "perfect pitch" is the guy that doesn't even need a reference to generate that starting E note that you mention. It's a neat trick but... so??? Can you play and / or sing well? That's all that matters.

The term PERFECT PITCH sounds so impressive that I think it's given a lot more attention than it deserves. "He has PERFECT PITCH!" sounds cool to the layperson, but it says nothing about whether you can play your instrument well.

-GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 17 November 2005 at 09:37 AM.]

Dave Boothroyd · Post by **Dave Boothroyd** » 17 Nov 2005 9:43 am

I agree with Roger R- true perfect pitch is a disability. Even a conventionally tuned piano is too far out for the worst sufferers, and string instruments are painful.
I've known a couple of people who were accurate frequency meters- but they could never relax enough to make music. You need quite a few degrees of latitude in your pitch sense- enough to know when a bit sharp or a bit flat is more interesting than Autotune accurate.
However, I've known quite a few old-school sound engineers who can whistle a 1000Hz alignment tone to within 5 Hz.
Can anyone else perform this utterly useless feat?

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Cheers!
Dave

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 17 Nov 2005 7:53 pm

Jim,seems like your taking up J.W.'s bad habits.

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 18 Nov 2005 6:25 am

Clearly it can be taught. The question is, can it be learned?

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 18 Nov 2005 9:35 am

FWIW, I think "semi-perfect" pitch can be learned. My experience sort of falls along the lines of Roger Rettig's example. After about 15 years of playing 6 string guitar I started developing a "tonal memory" of E, C, G, and A. All of the other in-between notes were fairly easy to peg as long as I had a grip on those first four. So for me, it was a combination of relative pitch and a limited tonal memory learned through repetition.

How useful has all of this been for me? Not very! I'm not rich (yet), it didn't impress women, and it made me look like a bit of a snob to my bandmates. So now in most situations where I'm dealing with a singer/songwriter type, I just smile and nod my head.

Mateo

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 18 Nov 2005 12:12 pm

To answer the original question, 'Not to Garth' ....

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 18 Nov 2005 3:28 pm

From reading all these comments you guys don't know what perfect pitch is. My mom had perfect pitch. She could sing a note from reading music without hearing any tone at all. She would be right on C or F or whatever she was reading with no reference point.