When did it become socially acceptable

Ken Thompson · From: Great Falls, Montana, USA

When did it become socially acceptable to deceive the audience by using tracks instead of real musicians? I just learned from a very reliable source (in production)that Keith Urban tracked his whole concert in Bozeman. A slew of busses and semis and he tracked his music. How much fun would that be to play in his band?

I would have demanded my money back. What do you all think? Am I wrong?

Ray Minich · From: Bradford, Pa. Frozen Tundra

The word "counterfeit" comes to mind, as in "counterfeit performance". If this allegation is true, and the concert ticket buying public continues to patronize the "live performances" of such an artist, then it must not matter much these days. Britney's been doin' it for some time I hear.
Milley Vinelli tickets anyone?

Walter Stettner · From: Vienna, Austria

My pessimistic view: It probably does not matter to the majority of the ticket buying people, because the main reason to go to a show or concert is not the music anymore, it is the overall event, the style, the "fun". Music is only a small part of the package, it has to be perfect, and what could be more "perfect" than a pre-recorded concert where somebody only has to press a button and the show starts....

If you read critics and reports about concerts in standard newspapers (not music magazines), you read a whole lot more about the stage show, the laser and lighting effects, the dresses and costumes than about the music.

If we, the musicians, call it "fraud", the vast majority of the ticket buyers might not even understand why we get so excited about it.

Kind Regards, Walter

www.lloydgreentribute.com
www.austriansteelguitar.at.tf

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I saw 'Queen' doing exactly that way back in the mid-'80s. I watched from back stage as Freddy Mercury mimed all that psuedo-classical piano to a track, just as the rhythm section were doing. I do seem to recall that Brian May's part was live.

The logic behind it is the pursuit of perfection, but it does seem to spoil the fun a bit. I don't think you'd ever have seen any of the REAL greats doing that (Ray Charles, Bruce Hornsby, James Taylor, Paul Simon, etc...). I suppose there's a lot of money spent on the overall production, but whether you actually got your money's worth is open to question. It's fraud in my book, but I wouldn't go down the street to hear Keith Urban.

RR

Ron Page · From: Penn Yan, NY USA

This is fantastic news to steel "players" like me. Perhaps I can actually take the stage with no worry of "clamming" up.

------------------
HagFan

Gaylon Mathews · From: Jasper, Georgia

We have done three large stadium shows with Keith Urban in the past few months. I can tell you that NONE of those shows were tracked.

------------------
Gaylon's Homepage
www.gaylonmathews.com

Gretchen Wilson
www.gretchenwilson.com

GFI Ultra D-10, Fender Steel King, GHS Strings, SteelSeat.com

[This message was edited by Gaylon Mathews on 20 September 2005 at 02:49 PM.]

Bill Cunningham · From: Atlanta, Ga. USA

I recently opened for a famous singer, songerwriter, guitarist, actor who uses tracks because his declining health has had a terrible impact on his chops. The audience still loves him because for the masses it all about entertainment. They definately felt they got their money's worth. Yet somehow, it just doesn't seem fair to me.

------------------
"Gimme a steel guitar, 2 or 3 fiddles and a Texas rhythm section that can swing"..R. Pennington

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

There's no question this does go on, but, in Keith Urban's case, it sounds as though Gaylon was in a position to see the reality.

RR

erik · Posted 20 Sep 2005 5:03 pm

I saw Boston in '77. It was said , and it appeared, the harmony vocals were canned.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think that music today is not what it used to be, that is, basically an auditory entertainment. Nowadays, the visual aspect of music is often far more important than the auditory sensations. One only has the see MTV or CMT to discover that they've left out some V's. MTV's acronym should really be MVTV (for "Music Video TV"), and CMT's should be CMVTV (for "Country Music Video TV"). Indeed, that's about all you see on these stations...music videos. Rarely do actual performances get featured, and even rarer are actual "live" shows.

However, times change, and with it so must we. As the stress now is on the visual aspects, so must the "music part" take a subordinate role. Singers are generally more animated and personable than musicians (sorry guys

), so they get all the attention from the producers. Decades ago, the charts were replete with instrumentals. Back then, we even had #1 songs all the time that were "lyric free".

Right now, the last chart instrumentals I can recall that hit big were "The Entertainer", a remake of an old Scott Joplin song, and the "Chariots Of Fire" theme, by Vangelis, and they were both decades ago! When's the last time your favorite instrumental was played on the radio regularly?

It seems that, gradually, the musician took a lesser role, while the vocalist became the only "star". And now today, the instrumentalist is on the road to being totally supplanted by "tracks", and "sequenced/synthesized", computer assembled music. Some here will argue that opportunities still abound, but their logic is flawed. You see, I was there 40-50 years ago, and I know what the "music scene" was like! Today, it's only a dim shadow of what it was then. We actually used to gather around the radio just to listen! Now...people have TV's...big ones, high definition and color, with 6-channel sound, but today, the family just doesn't "gather 'round" like they used to. The culture has changed. The stress used to be on the unit...the family unit, the religious unit, the corporate unit, the American unit. But now, things are different. Everyone wants to be an individual, first and foremost. And so, you see, the singers have become "individuals" too. They no longer want to be tied together with "musicians". We've gone from musical units (bands) to just an individual singer, who'll accept anything (even a "track") as long as he or she gets to be the center of things. Perish the thought that they should have to share the stage with us lowly musicians!

And, of course, from a corporate standpoint, one "employee" is far more economical and easier to cater to than 4 or 5.

Well, I guess that's about where we are today.

Odd ramblings...forgive me.

Any questions?

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Donny covers a lot of areas and paints a somewhat bleak picture, but I have to agree with him, I've come to the same conclusion in my own thinking these past several years.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I used to joke with a buddy of mine that one day we would sit out on the front porch, do some pickin' and complain about how the kids these days don't have a clue what good music is and that they don't know how to play,etc. We figured we would grow old and contemptable, finding fault with everything for the sake of being miserable, yet in some sick way, finding a kind of morbid satisfaction in it all.

Well, it may not have come to that quite yet, but there is an awful lot about music today to make a fella ornery. Lord willin', I still got about 20 years or so before I hit that front porch plateau in my life, but the way things are goin' there's gonna be plenty of fuel to keep my dander up when finally I plop my tired old butt down in my rockin' chair and start tellin' them young whippersnappers a thing or two.

Heck, by that time, they might not even realize that music was once made on actual instruments.

Gloryland looks better every day.

Kevin Hatton · From: Buffalo, N.Y.

I think Gaylon knows what he's talking about. he was there.

Jim Phelps · From: Mexico City, Mexico

Some of us were speaking about the state of modern music in general, and not just the Keith Urban show.

If Gaylon says there were no tracks used, I believe him. That however doesn't speak for every artist on every show.

I also believe what Donny says is absolutely accurate in general, and many of us were also "there" to know.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

They been doing it since American Bandstand.
Why are we suddenly suprised?

Boston in '77 had some back up singers supplimenting them from back stage, for some of the trickier instrumental and vocal parts, and for fullness.

But the whole band could and did sing very well.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 September 2005 at 10:43 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Donny may be right (scary). I happened to pause the remote last nite on a group of individuals who appeared to be acting out a music video. No band was to be seen, everything was canned, yet the crowd was going wild.
I look forward to the front porch.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

Selling people B.S. in the place of content is a great American tradition - look at politics! Look at TV preachers, look at all the ads from insurance companies, drug companies, oil companies who are apparently only in business because they want to be your friend. I do think it shows exactly why some "musicians" are in the business at all. They may have started for the love of playing (or not) but they sure did change. Musical talent and the love of attention used to be needed to be a star, now the talent part has hit the trail. Paris Hilton is putting the finishing touches on her first album!?! It'll probably be a big hit, grumble, grumble, where's my porch....

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I saw it a few years ago at a concert by a major Christian act... No amps on stage, everone had headphones on, and lots of tracks... It had a $79 boom box on the kitchen counter while making dinner type of vibe...repulsive from a musicians standpoint... the crowd LOVED it,they were oblivious.. I was disgusted.. if you hire fine musicians, LET THEM PLAY... are we really THAT worried about a mistake or two?? Music is suppossed to be real... not faked.. bob

Bob Smith · From: Allentown, New Jersey, USA

I wish more folks in this forum would chime in on some of these posts. How many members are there? Looks like about 80% lurkers. Just a thought,, bob

c c johnson · From: killeen,tx usa * R.I.P.

As musicians we all think that the crowd is paying attn to us. This applies to one musician to another. The crowd could not care less. Yrs ago I had a difference of opinion with the leader/singer of the band I was with concerning the attn of the crowd. I said the only thing the crowd listens for is the tempo of the kick off. The gals think "Yeah I can shake my booty to that" The guys say " yeah I won't look stupid on the dance floor to that". Or in both cases vice versa. I told him annouce the next # as Release Me and we'll do Fraulien. The floor was packed and no one said anything about the wrong song. CC

Bob Carlucci · From: Candor, New York, USA

I dunno Bob S... I'd guess 90%!!!bob

John Steele (deceased) · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

I've been doing some gigs lately that involve tracks. I didn't think I'd like it one bit, but y'know, it's ok.
In our case, the front line (steel/piano, lead guitar, fiddle and vocals) are live and the rhythm section is canned.
Sure, in an ideal world the rhythm section would be live too, but the fact remains that the gig doesn't pay enough to do that. Given the choice between a live drummer and going home with some decent bread in my pocket, I'll take the bread.
But then again, I'm not out there to educate people.
-John

Jack Therrell · From: Conroe, Texas, USA

It seems to me the music business has discovered what P. T. Barnum said about the public many years ago. The quality of the music is muted by the celebrity of the singer. With the huge crowds generated by some of our entertainers today, you can't hear the background music and can bearly hear the singer.So it is relatively easy for the singer to mimic his recording. As long as people want to go and pay to be fooled I say "let em eat cake" Jack

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I think this kind of stuff has been going on for a long time. The process of detaching music from live performance started with extensive overdubbing in the 60s and has grown from there. I think that the amount of 'genuine performance' has been gradually but exponentially declining since then. Many people demand to hear exactly what's on the record. If that was an extensive production, canned tracks are necessary unless producers willing to duplicate that with live musicians.

But there is still plenty of 'authentic music' out there - it's just being gradually eliminated from mass-market music. I still find plenty of real musicians in small-to-medium size venues. I rarely venture out to large-venue shows.

This type of phenomenon is not peculiar to music. Pre-fab instant gratification is what most of our children have been weaned on, and they get angry when that is not available. This ain't going away until we, as a society, start valuing things like personal integrity, personal achievement, and quality over power, instant gratification, and the almighty dollar. Sorry, but that may be quite a wait, as long as the majority of the populace is "doing just fine, I got mine, thank you".

Willis Vanderberg · From: Petoskey Mi

This will be ancient history to some.
I started in the late forties. I remember my first paid gig, I worked two hours with two flat top pickers and was paid five bucks. But the money was secondary, it was a chance to perform in front of a live audience.When I was fifteen I worked a live show at Buck Lake Ranch at Angola Ind. Cowboy Copas was the headliner and I met Mr. Roy Ayres who was playing steel that day. I was absolutely star struck that he would take the time to talk to me and offer a word of encouragement to a young picker.
We worked auction barns, dance halls , rodeo's, provided music for a magic act and talent shows and what ever we could get. Sometime in the mid fifties we auditioned for the talent search being run across the country by Audry Williams. She ended up hiring us for the band.
This was typical of opportunities that abounded in our area. These were venues where families came together to listen to the music. No drinking , no smoking for the most part and just plain fun.
I find pleasure in playing RV Parks and senior centers for the same reason.
You can actually hear what is said and what is played. If you really want to be appreciated find a little country church and play your heart out. It is good for the soul too..just my 2 cnts
Old Bud

Forum Index > Music	Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next	Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic